Larsguy47

First of all, the experts in the field of ancient astronomy don't think that it was possible to predict a solar eclipse until very late, long past the Assyrian Period and long past the time of Thales:

Here's a famous quote from Otto Neugebauer, the undisputed expert in the field of ancient archaeoastronomy. This is regarding why Thales could not predict an eclipse.

Neugebauer wrote:

... there exists no cycle for solar eclipses visible at a given place: all modern cycles concern the earth as a whole. No Babylonian theory for predicting a solar eclipse existed at 600 BC, as one can see from the very unsatisfactory situation 400 years later, nor did the Babylonians ever develop any theory which took the influence of geographical latitude into account.

This is patently disproven, however.

Here is the latest from NASA on the topic:

BUT... even Otto Neugebauer understood that it was possible, if a pattern did exist and was recorded in ancient records that future eclipse locations and times could be predicted. But this particular pattern was not known to him:


The above is now completely disproven! That's because a long series of eclipses that ocurred following the exiligmos pattern cycle, that is every 54 years and 1 month, also occurred in relation to each other bout 10-11 degrees (690-700 miles) farther north. Thus if a total eclipse was experienced in a certain location, then the succeeding eclipse in the series could be predicted by both location and date.

Based upon the series occurring in Assyria as noted in the chart, it is likely that this understanding occurred for the first time during this series of eclipses where the pattern was consistent. That is, after observing the first two eclipses in the series, which established the PATTERN, then the third in the series became predictable. Once that occurred, then the theory of prediction for similar eclipses in this series would have been established.

Below is my labor of love today, a chart showing how from Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, they would have experienced the eclipses occurring in their region and how observing the first two eclipses and then understanding their relation to the total eclipse track, they would have reasonably been able to predict the third one, which would have been a major social event!




PUT YOURSELF IN THE MINDSET OF AN ANCIENT ASTRONOMER FROM ASSYRIA C. 817-709BCE. Observatories were all over Babylon and Assyria at this time. Thus when the 817BCE eclipse occurred May 17th, seen as an approximately 40-45% eclipse going across the bottom of the Sun, they would have heard about the totality of the eclipse 700 miles to the south. Then in 763BCE, exactly 54 years and 1 month later on June 15, 763, they experienced a total eclipse with the moon crossing through the middle of the sun. By combining the two in a perceived pattern, they would suspect that in 54 years and 1 month a third eclipse would occur, with the moon crossing over the upper half of the sun, and the total eclipse track occurring 10-11 degrees farther north. That is, the dating and the pattern of the first two eclipses suggested a repeat of this pattern, making the third eclipse in the series predictable. Once this was confirmed, then likely similar eclipses thought to belong to this rare pattern would be used for predicting future eclipses as well.

But this is why this series is so special. Because it would take three eclipses in a row repeating the same pattern for this to become an established predictable theory of predictability. If we presume that, then this rare series of eclipses that occurred with 7 eclipses in this cycle, which is rare, might establish the very first ever predictable eclipse for this pattern!

Rare series of 7 sequential predictable eclipses.

THE PREDICTED ECLIPSE, JULY 17, 709 BCE: Based on the above, the Assyrians should have been able to predict the time and location of the next eclipse in the series after the 763 BCE event. That eclipse would have been the July 17, 709BCE eclipse, which would not have disappointed them!! It occurred precisely 54 years and 1 month later and within the 690-700 mile interval established between the 817 and 763BCE eclipses. This might have been a huge scientific event, with Babylon and Assyria participating together.

It would have been remarkable for them to simply predict the eclipse occurring which was a strong partial eclipse of about 45% covering the top half of the sun. But some may have traveled north 700 miles to experience the total eclipse track, which would have been an incredible experience.

Considering the above, of course, if this actually was the first predicted eclipse and it was foretold for Assyrians, then it likely was one of the most important astronomical events in their history and would have been a huge social event! Certainly, such an important event would have been recorded in the annual limmu (eponym) list as one of the important events of the year.

The Babylonians normally began their year after the spring equinox. Therefore, the eclipse recorded in the Assyrian eponym for the 10th of Bar-Sagale dated to the third month of Simanu would have normally fallen in 709BCE. That's because this series of eclipses that occur every 54 years and 1 month apart would have dated the 763BCE in month two, not month three as it is dated now.


That is, using the standard Babylonian method, the 763BCE eclipse would have been dated to month two, and the 709BCE eclipse dated to month three. As it is, the 763BCE eclipse is now dated to month 3, but to do so requires the year to start prior to the Spring equinox. When we consider that and consider the special significance of the 709BCE eclipse, likely the first ever predicted solar eclipse event, something that modern astronomers didnt' realize was possible, then there is a strong basis for believing that indeed, the 709BCE eclipse was actually the actual eclipse being referred to, and it entered into the social annual register as an important event, because it was predicted. There is only one eclipse event mentioned in the entire eponym list, thus this eclipse must have been quite rare and special. If it was the first predicted solar eclipse in ancient history, then it would have been!

In the meantime, NASA and the professors teaching ancient astronomy are out of date as far as what the ancients knew about predicting solar eclipses, even if it was on this very limited platform.

LG47

RED DAVE

Meanwhile, all the above notwithstanding, you persist in spreading the nonsense, on the basis of your eclipse fantasies, that the Peloponnesian War, and all of Greek history, including the life of Socrates, have to be displaced by 27 years.

Right. And Aristotle and Socrates were lovers. Right.

(And we're still waiting for that secret nonexistent book you allegedly have in your possession which holds all the secrets of the ancient world. Probably an early version of the Junior Woodchuck Handbook.)

RED DAVE

Sheshbazzar

And all this elaborate smokescreen so it will lend support to his misapplication of "prophecy", and his bogus "prophecy fulfillment" time schedule, linked to the equally bogus claim that "2/3rds of the Jewish people died in the Holocaust".
No matter how elaborately contrived his revisions of ancient history, the false premise that he is attempting to prop up with his endless arguments and "proofs", is invalidated by any investigation of the facts and statistics of WWII, "2/3rds of the Jewish people"- DID NOT DIE- in the Holocaust.
Even by the inflated statistics of the site he chose to support his argument, only about 1/3rd of the worlds Jewish population were victims.

Godless Dave

What you say is disproven was not disproven. Negebauer, as quoted by you, says that Babylonians could not predict solar eclipses in 600 BC. The NASA quote you cited says that Greek astronomers made the measurements needed in 100 BC. So what has been disproven?

Dean Anderson

Ah - but you forget...

Once you realise that Pharaoh Necho II and Joseph Goebbels were lovers, it becomes apparent that the report of King Josiah's death at the Battle of Megiddo is actually talking about the killing of 120% of the world's Jews during the Holocaust. This proves that all prophecies in the Bible are correct, and that there were in fact 3 Jesuses (the two skinny ones balance out the fat one).

With that in mind, we can re-examine the C-14 dating of the Sun, and establish that according to a graph which I will not reproduce here, there is a 97.3% chance that all eclipses happen simultaneously, in 100 BC (within an error margin of +/- 25 billion years).

Now, when we combine this with the indisputable fact that when we examine the mummified remains of Huang Ti (the legendary "Yellow Emperor" and founder of China) we find that not only his leg, but his whole remains are missing - which is what one would expect if someone is burnt up by the sun - then it is obvious that the eclipses were caused by the Yellow Emperor, who was so named because he flew too close to the sun on wings made of wax; and the Greek myth of Icarus, as told by Ovid in "Metamorphoses" in the 1st century BCE is actually an eyewitness account of the story of Huang Ti.

Now, given that Lao Tse (the 6th Century BCE philosopher and author of the Tao Te Ching) was Chinese, then he must have lived after the founding of China by Huang Ti.

Therefore, this is archaeohistorical proof that the 1st century BCE happened before the 6th century BCE.

So there!

Larsguy47

How dare you, RD, accuse me of such preposterousness!!! I would never consider displacing Plato by 27 years! That's why I displace him 28 years! 431-403=28 (last time I checked) :notworthy: :notworthy:


I have no idea. I got that idea from an old book I found in an obscure, dusty old used book store (aren't they all?) in San Pedro. So I don't know for sure. But it wouldn't be that shocking as I said. Socrates for sure had a lover, called "Phaedo", and he was a young boy. So that's nothing new about him. So it's just wondering whether Aristotle wasn't also in a mentor-protege, older man-boy relationship to learn how to be a philosopher. His father was a doctor and he was supposed to follow in those footsteps but he got sidetracked. If he was actually formally trained or mentored then that would suggest he was mentored as a philosopher. If he were mentored by the best, Socrates, one would expect great things from him. And certainly, he was a great admirer of Socrates.

So what do we really have here? My or your inability to face reality. :devil1:


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Gasp! How did you know?!!! Let me tell you something. When I first started doing research in Los Angeles in chronology, a lot of focus was on Josephus and his history. Thus he got bashed a lot. But he was a double threat because he not only provided a secular history, but a Biblical interpretation of the Bible's history as well. Thus, for instance, those trying to interpret the 70 years of desolation at varying times mattered not since Josephus clearly indicates where those 70 years per Jewish history and Biblical interpretation go. I traveled around LA a lot and visited various libraries since each had their own rare books. I think only five libraries carried the works of Josephus. Within about 2-3 years the entire library system stopped carrying a single copy. Was it related to my research and use of Josephus to establish my chronology? Maybe, maybe not. But it seems to me if people with enough money and power want to keep the public in the dark, making sure they don't "stumble" on certain materials or making it difficult for them to get a copy would work out. Certainly, for instance, I think the Catholic Church could have that influence. Anyway, I decided for certain rare sources, I'd just keep those references to myself. So be my guest and not believe a word about the "alleged affair" between Socrates and Aristotle. But I certainly didn't make it up nor would have thought of it had it not showed up in that book. But turns out, when you do make that comparison, there are a lot of overlaps and the dating is exact. Aristotle is the same age as Phaedo when Socrates dies. And Aristotle quotes Socrates right and left. So. We will never know, I guess.

So for the record, it's my opinion that it's possible/plausible that Phaedo was substituted historically in place of Aristotle since the history of Socrates was adjusted back so that he dies before Aristotle was born. Of course, Aristotle was very close to Plato and Xenophon, the other two "suspects" in the conspiracy. The nature of his work, especially his new fascination with astronomy science suggests the history was already worked out by the Persians for the most part and they just hired a "Greek writer" to write the revised history for the Greek Period, and while he was at it, he became an expert of Persian History, restating the revisions of Herodotus. Thus it seems that Herodotus may have been hired as well by the Persians to help indoctrinate the Greeks about Persian "history." But Herodotus was only half-hearted, since he gave subtle clues about what really happened, including two eclipses that allow for the corrected redating.

That's what is fascinating about Herodotus. He tells us about the famous Thales eclipse that was predicted. But it only works with the original chronology!


Thales Eclipse redated.

Cheers, LG47

Larsguy47

Sorry, but the VAT4956 alone not only confirms the false date of 568BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar, it forces the redating to 511BCE. There's nothing you can do about that. It has to be redated to that date as a Babylonian reference whether it happens to agree with the Bible's dating or not. So now you know. But using the VAT4956, which reduces the NB Period by 57 years, the 709BCE eclipse used to date the Assyrian Period would correct 54 out of the 57 years, which is neglible. And having done that, Shishak's invasion falls from 925 BCE to 871BCE, which is precisely where the best RC14 dating dates that event.

RC14 Dating of Rehov to 871 BCE (i.e. for those new to the board).

First of all, please forgive me for not being more precise. The two-thirds reference (Zech. 13:8) is in relation to the "great tribulation." Thus it would be a reference to that invent and those involved in that event. Since the great tribulation is equivalent to the Holocaust, the two-thirds number is in relation to the Holocaust only and most specifically. As I've posted before, that's close to the general numbers published by Jews themselves about how many they estimate were present in the occupied lands and how many died, something that is still quite unbelievable! Those general, rounded off numbers are usually 9 million before and "six million" who died in the Holocaust and that's the "two-thirds" fulfillment. So I should have been more specific about this being those involved with the Holocaust/great tribulation.

Of note though, in the documentary "Shoah" and also in the fairly recent movie "True Believer" about a Jewish Nazi, when some Jews explain the Holocaust and how they could still believe in God, they say they understand it was punishment for what their ancestors did (not related to Christ, but for things before).

Lamentations was actually written in advance to mourn over what would happen during the Holocaust:

5:7 Our forefathers are the ones that have sinned. They are no more. As for us, it is their errors that we have had to bear."

This great tribulation was to happen "in one hour" which is 7 years in the Bible. But the chronology is specific. It occurs after 62 weeks in a 70-week period, which is 490 years. The first 70 weeks ends in 36CE, the end of the week in which Christ arrives (29-36). So you only need to just count down 70-week periods to our day, which is 4 x 490 years = 1960. 1960 plus 36 = 1996. That means 490 years ends the 70 weeks closest to our time and that begins in 1506BCE. That's around the time that Martin Luther became a monk, and relates to the rebuilding of the spiritual temple that had been desolated by paganism in the Catholic Church (i.e. Fertility goddess Ishtar worship during "Easter"). At any rate the hour of tribulation would occur after 62 weeks, followed by a jubilee of 49 years wherein the Jews would be restored to their homeland and blessed by YHWH. 62 weeks is 434 years. 1506+434=1940. So from 1940-1947 is when this "great tribulation" must occur and those Jews involved would lose 2/3rds of their entire population. Not just soldiers fighting in wars, not just political activists or "intellectuals" but the entire population. Men, women, children, old, feeble and robust, bakers and doctors. Rank and money would mean nothing. It was all prophesied and it all came true. In 7 years, in 1947 the Jews regained their homeland. And were blessed to become a major nation in the world now, just as the Bible said.

It's true. It's correct.

LG47

Larsguy47

The Assyrians gained the ability to predict this type of rare solar eclipse event by 763 BCE. That's 700 years earlier than 100 BC. Neugebaur allowed for this possibility, however. But he simply wasn't aware of this rare occurrence and wouldn't have been unless he was doing many calculations. This is the result of modern astronomy programs and being able to make these quick comparisons. Thus the "theory" of predictability was understood by this means, by ancient records and a potential repeating pattern, it just wasn't identified.

NASA, likewise, focussed on their technical way of predicting eclipse simply had tunnel vision as far any other means of predicting an eclipse. They figure it had to be "calculated" and understood how complex that was. But that was not necessary in this case. The only necessity was to be near the total eclipse track or the spot of totality when this series repeats. It's not every eclipse that happens that follows this pattern. It's possible, though, that they made the presumptions generally or specifically about which eclipse would repeat. But even if they presumed that about every horizontally oriented solar eclipse, when the pattern repeated they would be correct. Once they did that, then they would become famous, as Thales did.

That's why Thales is so critical and interesting. That's because there is not likely any other means of predicting both date and location of a solar eclipse event other than by this method. It is clear that Thales specifically "warned Ionia" regarding an upcoming eclipse. He would have been able to do that if the eclipse in Ionia was part of this pattern and observed by some astronomical observatory, such as at Babylon or Egypt. Most pertinently, though, the eclipse in Ionia would need to have the matched event occur in Egypt which is 700 or so miles directly south of Ionia.


Once we establish the correct dating for the NB Period, which is done now by the VAT4956 which has two astronomical references to 511BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar, which dismisses the 568BCE dating, we can establish the rule of Cyrus beginning 455BCE in Babylon who began 20 years earlier over Persia (now dated 559-539BCE). This occurs in the 6th year of Nabonidus thus we can date the two years he was actively on the throne between 480-478BCE. The eclipse in 478BCE did go straight across Ionia and is part of this series since the 532 BCE eclipse did occur in Egypt. And Egypt is where Thales studies astronomy, not Babylon! So it all fits. It fits if you have the right dating.


So Thales is redeemed and the ancient astronomers as well.

LG47

Godless Dave

So why did you quote NASA saying they disproved Neugebauer, when they didn't?

Larsguy47

Listen. The Greeks back then thought the greatest love possible was between an older man and his adolescent lover. That was the culture. Socrates is historically known to have had that relationship with "Phaedo." Who is to say Aristotle wasn't someone's lover in his youth too? That is what the Greeks did.

Plus especially during the Persian era were castrated males a big commodity. So please save the gay behavior "shock" attempt for another century.


Yeah, I know. I have a copy of that chart myself! Amazing, isn't it!

Amazing. Science is really getting good with RC14. Especially if they have the right sample. We can now date Shishak's invasion to 870.5 BCE!!! Did you know that? It's quite amazing as you say.

Amazing but I'd have to agree with you. But usually 1 does come before six anyway. You know, like 1951 comes before 1956. So that's was a no-brainer pretty much, but it's good to have historical support for these things. Because, believe me, there are a lot of people out there who haven't got a clue about any of the right dates. It's just a big mess!

So there!

LG47