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Old 06-11-2008, 12:32 PM   #21
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This website has a more scholarly approach and you may find quite a bit of info.

The following excerpt was taken from the site but my link is no longer valid. You may want to search the site for the full article.

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http://www.irr.org/mit/bomwit1.html

Facts On The Book Of Mormon Witnesses Part 1
Copyright © 1996 Institute For Religious Research. All rights reserved.

This paper examines the culture, credibility and relevant testimony of the eleven men the LDS Church presents as witnesses to the Book of Mormon. It draws extensively from early sources, both Mormon and non-Mormon, in an attempt to provide an honest and balanced portrayal of the Witness phenomenon. A careful analysis of the historical evidence reveals serious problems.

Author's note: The information on the Book of Mormon witnesses in this article can now also be found in books written by active LDS authors. For example, see chapter 6 "Witnesses to the Golden Plates" in Grant H. Palmer's book titled, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (Signature Books, SLC, 2002, pp. 175-213). Palmer is an LDS seminary teacher and three-time director of LDS Institutes of Religion in California and Utah. His analysis of the witnesses' experience mirror to a large degree those of this article.

The Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer, all initially describe their experience with the angel and the plates as subjective and visionary rather than objective and concrete. Their elaborations on the encounter, their departure from the LDS Church, as well as other events in their lives, raise questions about their level of discernment and their credibility as witnesses.

The testimony of the Eight Witnesses is more objective but is plagued by its own set of problems. All eight had close personal ties to Joseph Smith's family — four were David Whitmer's brothers, a fifth was married to a Whitmer sister, and Joseph's father and two brothers made up the remaining three. These close ties to Joseph Smith, coupled with discrepancies between the witnesses' published Book of Mormon statement and later personal statements, as well as the question of coercion on the part of Joseph Smith, all raise questions of their credibility as well.

Quote:
In the years immediately preceding any mention of the gold plates and the Book of Mormon, both Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father, Joseph Sr., were money diggers like those described above. They openly shared their supernatural abilities to see treasure and other things not visible to the natural eye. William Stafford, a neighbor and fellow treasure seeker gave the following account:

Joseph, Jr., could see, by placing a stone of singular appearance in his hat, in such a manner as to exclude all light; at which time they pretended he could see all things within and under the earth, — that he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates — that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress."[1]

It is evident the Smith's believed what Joseph saw in his stone for they made attempts to retrieve this treasure. In the same affidavit Stafford recalled one time the made a circle on the ground and put hazel sticks around the circle to keep off evil spirits. A steel rod was added to the center of the circle, a trench dug and then "the older Smith consulted his son who had been 'looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit.'" However, they had made a mistake in how they started the whole operation, otherwise they would have gotten the money (Joseph Smith's New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, SLC, Signature Books, 1990, pp. 143-145).

Quote:
While Joseph Smith was dictating the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery, he read off a section that declared there would be three special witnesses who would be allowed to see the plates and then "bear witness" to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith's History of the Church states,
Almost immediately after we had made this discovery, it occurred to Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and the aforementioned Martin Harris (who had come to inquire after our progress in the work) that they would have me inquire of the Lord to know if they might not obtain of him the privilege to be these three special witnesses; and finally they became so very solicitous, and urged me so much to inquire that at length I complied (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53).

Joseph then produced a revelation for Oliver, David and Martin which stated that if they relied upon God's word and did so with a full purpose of heart they would "have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim & Thummim, ... and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi" (Ibid, p. 53). It would only be by their faith that they would be able to obtain a view of them.

This is very convenient. Joseph dictates the part of the Book of Mormon that mentions three special witnesses while all three are there with him. These men beg Joseph to ask God if maybe they aren't the ones. When he finally gives in, Joseph immediately gets a revelation that says, if they have faith, rely on God's word and have full purpose of heart, they will see not only the plates but numerous other wonderful things.

So they go to the woods and first spend a prolonged time in prayer. Nothing happens. They pray more. Nothing happens. Martin Harris volunteers to leave the group because he senses the others think he was the reason nothing was happening. As soon as Harris leaves, the others claim to see the angel and plates, though there is no mention of any of the other items that had been promised. According to Joseph Smith's history, Joseph then goes to find Harris, and while praying together, Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;" (Ibid, p. 55). It becomes clear that all three of these men desired this prestigious position of being the special chosen witnesses. They were emotionally primed by what Joseph claimed to translate and then by the revelation Joseph gave that emphasized their need for faith. The vision only came to Oliver and David after a prolonged time in prayer and the departure of Martin Harris.

It would appear from this account and Doctrine & Covenants 17, that the idea of three witnesses to the Book of Mormon is a new discovery made by Joseph and Oliver in June of 1829 while producing the Book of Mormon. Yet, three months earlier in March of 1829, Joseph received a revelation for Martin Harris which stated that Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon but that God would grant him no other gift, and that God would call and ordain three special witnesses to whom God would give supernatural power to "behold and view these things as they are." The revelation went on to say that no one else but the three would have the power to receive this same testimony. It is possible that Joseph did not refer back to this March 1829 revelation regarding the witnesses because by June he already had in mind to add eight additional witnesses besides Cowdery, Whitmer and Harris. Adding additional witnesses would go against the earlier revelation that there would be three and only three witnesses and that Joseph should not show the gold plates to anyone else (D&C 5:3, 12-14).

There is another conflict with the story as recorded by Joseph in his official history. Supposedly all three men saw the angel and gold plates the same day. But, Harris provided this information in an interview with Anthony Metcalf:

I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at the time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates. (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71.)

The article runs some 25 pages and gives quite a bit of historical detail about the so-called witnesses.

More regarding the witness Martin Harris:

Quote:
Of the Three Witnesses, Martin Harris was probably the most affected by this mystical and magical outlook. Contemporaries of Harris had some of the following to say about him:

"a visionary fanatic" - said Rev. Jesse Townsend,

"Marvelousness" was his "predominating phrenological development," - Pomeroy Tucker (a man who appeared to like and respect M. Harris) who also said he was given to a "belief in dreams, ghosts, hobgoblins, 'special providences,' terrestrial visits of angels, [and] the interposition of 'devils' to afflict sinful men"

"There can't anybody say a word against Martin Harris. Martin was a good citizen ...a man that would do just as he agreed with you. But, he was a great man for seeing spooks." - Lorenzo Sauders, one who claimed to know the Harris family well. (Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 19 (Winter 1986): 34-35).

Another example comes from John H. Gilbert, one who participated in the printing of the Book of Mormon. He provides this information:

Martin was something of a prophet: — He frequently said that "Jackson would be the last president that we would have; and that all persons who did not embrace Mormonism in two years would be stricken off the face of the earth.: He said that Palmyra was to be the New Jerusalem, and that her streets were to be paved with gold. Martin was in the office when I finished setting up the testimony of the three witnesses, — (Harris — Cowdery and Whitmer) I said to him, — "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" Martin looked down for an instant, raise his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.' (Wilford C. Wood, Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958, introduction. This is a photomechanical reprint of the first edition [1830] of the Book of Mormon. It also contains biographical and historical information relating to the Book of Mormon.)

Martin Harris shows signs of being an unstable person in terms of his religious convictions. G.W. Stodard, in an affadavit dated Nov. 28, 1833 states:

I have been acquainted with Martin Harris, about thirty years... Although he possessed wealth, his moral and religious character was such, as not to entitle him to respect among his neighbors....He was first an orthadox Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationer, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon. By his willingness to become all things unto all men, he has attained a high standing among his Mormon brethren. (Howe 1834, 260-261)

This religious instability continued even after Harris joined the Mormon Church. The Mormons admitted as much in 1846:

One day he [Martin Harris] would be one thing, and another day another. He soon became deranged or shattered, as many believed, flying from one thing to another, as if reason and common sense were thrown off their balance. In one of his fits of monomania, he went and joined the 'Shakers' or followers of Anne Lee. He tarried with them a year or two, or perhaps longer... but since Strang has made his entry into the apostate ranks, and hoisted his standard for the rebellious to flock too, Martin leaves the 'Shakers,' whom he knows to be right, and has known it for many years, as he said, and joins Strang in gathering out the tares of the field. ( Millennial Star, vol. 8, November 15, 1846, p. 124.)

The same article goes on to state:

...if the Saints wish to know what the Lord hath said of him, they may turn to the 178th page of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the person there called a 'wicked man' is no other than Martin Harris... (Ibid)
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:43 PM   #22
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One more comment on this subject:

Quote:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_7413508



The Book of Mormon: Minor edit stirs major ruckus
1-word intro change seems to alter LDS stance on ancestry of American Indians
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 11/09/2007 08:15:52 AM MST

The LDS Church has changed a single word in its introduction to The Book of Mormon, a change observers say has serious implications for commonly held LDS beliefs about the ancestry of American Indians.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe founder Joseph Smith unearthed a set of gold plates from a hill in upstate New York in 1827 and translated the ancient text into English. The account, known as The Book of Mormon, tells the story of two Israelite civilizations living in the New World. One derived from a single family who fled from Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and eventually splintered into two groups, known as the Nephites and Lamanites.
The book's current introduction, added by the late LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie in 1981, includes this statement: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
The new version, seen first in Doubleday's revised edition, reads, "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."
LDS leaders instructed Doubleday to make the change, said senior editor Andrew Corbin, so it "would be in accordance with future editions the church is printing."
The change "takes into account details of Book of Mormon demography which are not known," LDS spokesman Mark Tuttle said Wednesday.
It also steps into the middle of a raging debate about the book's historical claims.
Many Mormons, including several church presidents, have taught that the Americas were largely inhabited by Book of Mormon peoples. In 1971, Spencer W. Kimball, who would become church president in 1974, said that Lehi, the family patriarch, was "the ancestor of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea."
After testing the DNA of more than 12,000 Indians, though, most researchers have concluded that the continent's early inhabitants came from Asia across the Bering Strait.
With this change, the LDS Church is "conceding that mainstream scientific theories about the colonization of the Americas have significant elements of truth in them," said Simon Southerton, a former Mormon and author of Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church.
"DNA has revealed very clearly how closely related American Indians are to their Siberian ancestors," Southerton said in an e-mail from his home in Canberra, Australia. "The Lamanites are invisible, not principal ancestors."
LDS scholars, however, dispute the notion that DNA evidence eliminates the possibility of Lamanites. They call it "oversimplification" of the research.
On the church's official Web site, lds.org, it says, "Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin. The scientific issues relating to DNA, however, are numerous and complex."
Mormon researcher and DNA expert John M. Butler further argues that "careful examination and demographic analysis of The Book of Mormon record in terms of population growth and the number of people described implies that other groups were likely present in the promised land when Lehi's family arrived, and these groups may have genetically mixed with the Nephites, Lamanites, and other groups. Events related in The Book of Mormon likely took place in a limited region, leaving plenty of room for other Native American peoples to have existed."
In recent years, many LDS scholars have come to share Butler's belief in what is known as the "limited geography" theory.
By this view, the Nephites and Lamanites restricted their activities to portions of Central America, which would explain their absence from the general American Indian genetics.
Kevin Barney, a Mormon lawyer and independent researcher in Chicago, welcomes the introduction's word change.
"I have always felt free to disavow the language of the [Book of Mormon's] introduction, footnotes and dictionary, which are not part of the canonical scripture," said Barney, on the board of FAIR, a Mormon apologist group. "These things can change as the scholarship progresses and our understanding enlarges. This suggests to me that someone on the church's scripture committee is paying attention to the discussion."
---
* PEGGY FLETCHER STACK can be contacted at pstack@sltrib.com or 801-257-8725. Send comments about this story to religioneditor@sltrib.com.


What's different?

The book's current introduction, added by the late LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie in 1981, includes this statement: "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."
The new version, seen first in Doubleday's revised edition, changes just one word and reads, "After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
There may be corroboration that Joseph Smith had obtained a strange object that looked like gold plates with some sort of writing on them. (I'm not sure.)
It would certainly not shake any archaeological foundations if he had. The Mesoamericans worked extensively in gold, and many groups used pictographic writing comparable in complexity to Egyptian hieroglyphics. The most odd thing would be the transportation of such an artifact from Mexico/Central America to New York State--odd, but not impossible.

If Joe Smith did discover such an artifact, and chose to use it to found a religion instead of to enrich our understanding of an ancient culture, then he is worse than a mere charlatan for that reason alone.
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Old 06-11-2008, 04:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karalora View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
There may be corroboration that Joseph Smith had obtained a strange object that looked like gold plates with some sort of writing on them. (I'm not sure.)
If Joe Smith did discover such an artifact, and chose to use it to found a religion instead of to enrich our understanding of an ancient culture, then he is worse than a mere charlatan for that reason alone.
Read post #21 if you did not already. If you still subscribe to the idea that there were actual plates then you're unable to recognize blatant fraud and deceipt. Smith was a charlatan and his religion is completely entirely fraudulant.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:36 AM   #25
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Oh, I don't believe he found jackshit. I'm just saying that even if he had, what he chose to do with it was execrable. (I'm also saying, as an independent observation, that it is not a priori ridiculous to suppose that someone living in New York might find gold tablets covered with pictographic writing from a Mesoamerican civilization.)
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