KrisK10

Does anyone here have a basic skeptic's view of the Mormon origins claims: specifically that Joseph claimed to have been visited by an angel several times and that there existed some plates of gold that he showed to 8 or so people. My light study of this subject so far suggests to me that Smith did indeed show some plates of something to a few others. It seems to me that at least this part of Mormon origins has to be a fraud, even if Smith had a genuine hallucination. Any basic summaries or good sources anyone can offer would be appreciated.

Kris

Toto

There is a collection of links and articles in the II Modern Library here. I haven't checked as to how up to date it is.

JamesBrown

I have a pretty good understanding of the religion – I grew up in it and investigated it when I was far enough from it to be objective.

Smith and the Smith family were known ‘money diggers’ that is they offered to find money on your property by digging if you paid them enough.

Smith did claim to have been visited by God several times but each retelling of the events were different (first red flag). If you were visited by God would you remember it well enough to be consistent when recounting the events?

He also did claim to have shown the gold plates to several people who did testify that they did see them. Later on they all either fell from the religion or said they saw the plates with their ‘spiritual eyes’ only (second red flag and warning bell). If you saw gold plates and were convinced they were from God would you later ‘fall away’? Come on…

Smith claimed to have translated the plates into the Book Of Mormon using the Urim and Thummin, a set of seer stones made in to spectacles which he put on and then stared at the plates and was able to translate them. O’ by the way – he put the plates into a straw hat and burred his head into it, with the glasses on (heard enough yet? BS alarm going off yet?).

The more you read about this religion the more Scientology pales in comparison for sheer stupidity.:huh:

DCHindley

I also did some checking on the origins of Mormonism many years ago. Came up with petty much the same impression.

I do not think he was as unread as he claimed. For instance, read some of his revelations (I think _Pearl of Great Price_ is one of them). There wasn't much ancient Christian pseudepigrapha in print in the early 19th century, but what was around was very close to the style of revelations JS "received." Over at Oberlin College in Ohio, there is said to be an original manuscript that resembles the storyline of the Book of Mormon, which is known to have been written by someone unrelated to, and predating, JS's revelations. The idea here is that JS may have borrowed from this very work to produce the BoM. However, I have also heard recently that the provenance of this work is now called somewhat into question, which kind of negates its use as a kind of "smoking gun".

There is a lot that he is said to have claimed that is very much in the sphere of occult practice of the age (translating the plates from "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics", using peep-stone spectacles = his "Urim & Thumim", etc.). His translations of genuine hieroglyphics were unquestionably not even close, once genuine experts finally deciphered them for real after the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, so he had no competence in these areas. If his peep stones couldn't help him translated actual hieroglyphics, how much faith can you put in their ability to help him translate "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics"?

He WAS able to capture the imaginations of a fair number of followers, who migrated with him across the USA (NY, OH, MO, UT), building viable communities along the way. While he disavowed vices such as terbackie and acahaul, he did seem to like to take multiple wives, some rather young, ancient Jewish patriarch style. You know, I gotta get me some of them konk-you-bines.

DCH

andrewcriddle

There may be corroboration that Joseph Smith had obtained a strange object that looked like gold plates with some sort of writing on them. (I'm not sure.)

However, there is no corroboration whatsoever that the Book of Mormon is a valid translation of the "plates". (If they existed.)

Andrew Criddle

KrisK10

James,

Thanks for the firsthand thoughts. Based on what you know, what's your take on Smith's claim to have been visited by God -- hallucination or purposeful fraud?

I thought others who initially claimed to see an angel with Smith at one of the angel visits, later said that they saw the angel with "spiritual eyes". My understanding is that 8 or so people claimed they saw actual plates of some kind, and that these people never denied this even though some left the religion later. This seems to leave only the option that Smith put together or found some old plates and used them while knowing they were false, i.e. purposeful fraud.

Kris

Minimalist

Why not a 3d choice? "Nutty as a fruit cake." Moses, Paul, Zoroaster and Mohammad all had "visions" or "dreams" or claims that god spoke to them alone in some out of the way place. Perhaps "god" is shy around crowds?

Maybe they were all just lunatics?

Amaleq13

What were they talking about? Hidden bags of cash? Why would anyone think they had money buried on their property?

JamesBrown

I don't know WHY you think you have money on your property but I have looked through my peep stones and see that you DO. Email my your address and $1,000 ready money and I will tell you where it is!

Remember - I have these stones...

JamesBrown

To calibrate this bunch look here:
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/ind...howtopic=36055
This ‘deep’ discussion is on the mechanics of how God came to be our father – you know God the Father. Many of them believe that Mom God and Dad God have sex and that Mom pops the little sprits out – all that come to earth - about 5,000 per minute as near as I can calculate.
The posters are not sure just how literal this is but they are ‘open’ minded. Gasp.