John Kesler

All of the various ad hoc Jewish traditions are really tacit admissions that the biblical text is inconsistent and needs reconciling. Even so, the one I quote above from Rashi won't work because Exodus 12:40 clearley says that the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was 430 years, and there can't be sons of Israel/Israelites before Jacob/Israel had offspring. Saying that Abraham was somehow counted as an Israelite is like saying that Esau was an Amalekite, even though Amalek was Esau's grandson (Genesis 36).
I'm concerned about what the biblical text says, not later-evolved traditions.

Duvduv

So John, your conclusion is that something so glaring in the text went unnoticed for who-knows how long? Or that the author of Exodus and Genesis didn't bother to straighten it out? As far as the total number of years is concerned, the commentaries and midrashim do explain the differences and that there are discrepancies at all.

Toto

That's true of much in the area of Biblical studies, but not here. Enough trained archaeologists have spend so much time looking for evidence of the Exodus and have found nothing, that most people feel confident saying that the Exodus never happened. Just like there was no world wide flood, the sun didn't stand still in the sky for an extra day, etc.

steve_bnk

Someone posted the number 40 meant coloquialy a while.

JC went into the desert for 40 days. Ir rained for 40 days and nights.

There was a good pbs show last year on Jewish origins and the latest archeology.

The conclusion was that the original people were at least partly Egyptian refugees and escapee slaves.

Hence possibly the orgin of what became the exodus.

Duvduv

That's fine if you want to accept the word of archeologists who are neither omnipotent nor omniscient and who are constrained by the laws of time and space. I have no problem with that and the accompanying faith that it demands. It's only a problem when folks get trapped into that box such that the limitations of human attainment become divine qualities.

steve_bnk

Npt finding proof is not faith. It simply means there is no support for a story a few pages long in an acient text oif quetionable origins.

The faith is in believing thre tales without objective evidence.

I see you identify as an orthodox Jew. Christians who participate here often use the tactic of reversing the issue by attempting to say science itself is faith no different than religion. It does not work.

If ther are no archealogical or coorborataing reports of exodus from the times then there is simply no evidence. Nothing to do with faith.

Duvduv

That's fine. But there is a significant difference between saying that no empirical evidence has been found, and offering the unequivocal claim that the event is ipso facto FICTION.

John Kesler

I am aware that the LXX says this, as does the Samaritan Pentateuch:

The SP's author(s) realized the problem that I pointed out previously to Duvduv, that there couldn't have been "sons of Israel"/Israelites dwelling anywhere prior to Jacob/Israel's having offspring, and so this text makes allowance for the "fathers," i.e. Abraham and Isaac, but both the LXX and SP are attempts to harmonize the biblical text with the Exodus-6 genealogy. However, even accepting these readings, another inconsistency develops regarding the "prophecy" of Genesis 15:


It is prophesied that Abraham's descendants would be oppressed for 400 years "in a land not theirs." Notice that the "land" (singular) was not the Israelites', but this would hardly fit Canaan because God gave this land to Abraham and his descendants. Obviously, Egypt is the land spoken of, and you can't get 400 years of oppression in Egypt if only 215 years were spent there. That a land other than Canaan is meant is further proven by the prediction that after the oppression, Abraham's ancestors would "come back here" four generations later. Since the prophecy was spoken in Canaan, Canaan is the "here" that the Israelites would return to, so this nullifies any attempt to make any part of the 400 years apply to time spent in Canaan. Also note that Abraham was told that he would he would "go to [his] ancestors in peace," in contrast to the oppression that his descendants would get, so again, no part of the 400 years could have begun while Abraham was alive, contrary to some Jewish and Christian apologetic attempts to say that it did. In short, the LXX's and SP's attempt to resolve one discrepancy created another.

steve_bnk

As I have stated many times, I have no problem with religious faith within the bounds of our separation of church and tsate. I do noitbegrudge you your faith. However the onus is on you to substantiate claims.

That being said, we now digress into a common pattern here.

You: But the lack of evidence does not prove it could not be.
Me: True, btr that can be said of any beliefs, alien abductions, crop circles, tree spirits, etc.There are people who claim levitaion is possible, yet have never seen it.

And then we go round and round rephrasing the same points to no end.

Christians have a good one.

God exists.
How do you know?
Because it is in the bible.
How do you know the bible is true?
Because god is in the bible.

As an otthodox Jew I hope you can bring a perspective here on these forums.

John Kesler

I don't think that the discrepancy went unnoticed. See my reply to Criddle. I think that the LXX and SP are attempts to solve the chronological discrepancy, but as I pointed out, another discrepancy arises.