Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2011, 01:56 PM

In your first post you say:

Quote:

Freke & Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries (1999):

Wallis Budge, E. A., Egyptian Religion, (1899), 172: "The ancient Egyptians believed that the deceased must eat the gods and so be imbued with their powers."

I.e. on p.172. I gave you a link to page 172 directly:

http://books.google.com/books?id=c-0YAAAAYAAJ&jtp=172

and I also quoted what it said.

(But perhaps you are outside the US, and so can't see the page? Any way, in my posts above I quoted the whole page, and some stuff before and after.)

Freke and Gandy place their comment in quotes. But Budge did not say those words. Rather they are a summary of what they think (correctly) Budge is saying. Budge himself is not quoting the texts either, but referring to the texts on the walls of the pyramid of Unas at Saqqara. These must have been published, therefore, by 1899, and must therefore be accessible somewhere to us. I will look.

Freke and Gandy are not exactly reliable sources. I would surmise that they are probably quoting some intermediary source, and not Budge directly. The title they give indicates as much -- no work of that title was published in 1899. Remember that both are journalists, at best.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

UPDATE: On p.8 of the book I find a reference to "the text of Unas", with a footnote: "Ed. Maspero, Pyramides de Saqqarah, p.25." I wonder if that work is around online somewhere.

UPDATE: I would guess that it is the 1894 publication by Maspero, Les inscriptions des pyramides de Saqqarah. It's here: http://books.google.com/books?id=HqA_AAAAYAAJ. Looking through it now...

Toto · 07-01-2011, 01:58 PM

Peter Gandy has been posting recently on the JesusMysteries list on yahoogroups. You could join that group and post the question, or email him directly.

I suspect that the quotes are around what they thought was a paraphrase of the text, which does discuss eating gods.

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2011, 02:18 PM

Looks like p.67-68:

Quote:

Le ciel fond en eau, les étoiles se battent, les sagittaires font leur ronde, les os des Akerou tremblent et leurs vassaux se sauvent lorsqu'ils ont vu Ounas se lever âme, comme un dieu qui vit de ses pères et qui s'assimile ses mères; car c'est Ounas le maître de sagesse dont la mère ne sait pas le nom. Les richesses d'Ounas sont au ciel et il est fort dans l'horizon comme Toum son père qui l'a engendré, car, après que Toum l'a eu engendré, Ounas est devenu plus fort que lui, parce que les doubles d'Ounas sont derrière lui, sa plante des pieds est sous ses pieds, ses dieux sont sur lui, ses urauis sont sur ses tempes, les guides d'Ounas sont devant lui et l'urœus de flamme voit son âme; les puissances d'Ounas le protègent, c'est Ounas le taureau du ciel, qui se tient à l'écart, qui vit du devenir de tous les dieux et qui se nourrit des chairs de ceux qui viennent remplir leur ventre des sortilèges du bassin de flamme! Cest Ounas dont la main est armée contre les génies du bassin de flamme, car Ounas se lève en clief maître des esprits au bras violent et qui est assis le dos tourné à Sib, et c'est Ounas qui pèse la parole avec le dieu sans nom au jour de dépecer les dieux héritiers, c'est Ounas le maître de l'offrande, qui porte les nœuds de corde, et qui fait luimême l'abondance de ses biens, c'est Ounas qui mange les hommes, qui se nourrit des dieux, le maître des offrandes, celui qui pèse les registres de revenus. Le courbeur de fronts qui est dans les champs, a lacé les dieux pour Ounas; le génie dont la tête est sacrée, les a reconnus bons pour Ounas et les a traînés vers lui; le Maître de la bande les a liés; Khonsou le dépeceur des maîtres a fendu la gorge pour Ounas et a extrait leurs entrailles; car c'est lui le dieu messager qu'Ounas envoit à l'encontre d'eux. Shosmou les a dépecés pour Ounas et a fait cuire leurs pièces dans ses chaudrons brûlants. C'est Ounas qui dévore leurs vertus magiques et qui mange leurs âmes, et les grands d'entre eux sont pour le repas d'Ounas au matin, les moyens d'entre eux sont pour son rôti, les petits d'entre eux sont pour le repas d'Ounas au soir, les vieux et les vieilles d'entre eux sont pour ses fours! Les Grands au ciel ont rué la flamme pour Ounas contre les chaudières remplies des cuisses de leurs héritiers, celui qui fait marcher en procession les habitants du ciel autour d'Ounas a lancé dans les chaudrons les jambes de leurs femmes, si bien qu'il a couru autour du double ciel, en son entier, et qu'il a fait le tour des deux parties de l'Egypte; car c'est Ounas le grand type, maître des types, c'est Ounas la grande forme sacrée des formes sacrées, ce qu'il trouve sur son chemin, il le mange avidement, et la vertu magique d'Ounas est supérieure à toutes les formes maîtresses de l'horizon; c'est Ounas l'héritier supérieur aux héritiers, il a passé en revue les milliers, il a fait offrande aux centaines, il a travaillé de son bras en sa qualité de Grande forme, c'est-à-dire de Sahou, supérieur aux dieux3, Ounas a renouvelé son lever au ciel, il est la couronne du maître de l'horizon; il a compté les couronnes et les bracelets, il a pris les cœurs des dieux, il a dévoré la couronne rouge, il a mangé la blanche, les provisions d'Ounas sont les reins repus, ses vivres sont ceux dont les vertus magiques se nourrissent des cœurs. Car lui, Ounas, il dévore les choses que crache la couronne rouge, et il prospère, car leurs vertus magiques sont dans sou ventre et les formes d'Ounas ne sont pas repoussées loin de lui. Il a mangé la sagesse de tout dieu, et c'est la vie d'Ounas que la durée, c'est son période que l'éternité, dans cette forme qu'il lui plaît prendre et qu'il déteste ne pas prendre au sein de l'horizon à toujours et à jamais! Car leur âme est dans Ounas, leurs esprits sont avec Ounas en l'abondance des biens qu'il possède plus abondante que les biens des dieux; la flamme d'Ounas est en leur os, car leur âme est sous Ounas, leufs ombres sont toutes ensemble; comme Ounas est avec ces deux ...

Perspicuo · 07-01-2011, 02:33 PM

Who are Akerou, Ounas and Toum?

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2011, 02:38 PM

Here's a quick Google translate, smartened up a bit:

Quote:

The sky stands on water, the stars are fighting, the arrowhead on the beat, the bones of Akerou tremble and their vassals flee when they see Unas the rising soul, like a god who lives on his fathers and assimilated his mother; because it is Unas, the master of wisdom, whose mother does not know his name. The riches of Unas are in heaven and he is strong in the horizon like Toum his father, who fathered him, because, after Toum fathered him, Unas became stronger than him, because the doubles of Unas are behind him, his foot is under their feet, his gods are on them, his uraeus are on their temples, the guides of Unas are in front of them and the uraeus of flame sees his soul; the powers of Unas protect him, it is Unas the bull of heaven, who is held on the sidelines, who lives to become all the gods and who feeds on the flesh of those who come to fill their bellies from the spells of the pool of flame! It is Unas whose hand is against the military genies of the pool of flame, because Unas rises in chef as master of the spirits of violent arms and who is sitting with his back to Sib, and it is Unas who weighs the word with the god without name on the day of butchering the former gods, Unas is the lord of the offering, bringing the knots of rope and making himself an abundance of his possessions, it is Unas who eats men, which feeds on gods, the master of offerings, one that weighs the records of income. The bender of fronts who is in the field, has tied up the gods for Unas; the genie whose head is sacred, has recognized the good things for Unas and dragged them to him; the master of the band has chained them; Khonsu the master butcher has cut the throat for Unas and extracted their entrails; because he is he, the messenger god, that Unas sends to meet them. Shosmou has skinned them for Unas and cooked their pieces in his fiery cauldrons. It is Unas who devours their magic powers and eats their souls, and the great ones of them are for the morning meal of Unas, the middling of them for his roast, the least of them are for the evening dinner of Unas, the old and the oldest of them for his ovens! The great in heaven have rushed to the flame for Unas against the cauldrons filled with the thighs of their heirs, who marched the inhabitants of heaven in procession while Unas threw into pots the legs of their women, so that he has run twice around the sky, in its entirety, and has toured the two parts of Egypt; because it is the great type Unas, master of types, it is Unas the great sacred form of sacred forms, he who has found his way, he eats it eagerly, and the magic of Unas is superior to all the master forms of the horizon; it is Unas who is the heir superior to the heirs, he reviewed the thousands, he has made offerings to the hundreds, he has worked with his arm in his capacity as great form, that is to say Sahou, higher than the gods, Unas has renewed his elevation to heaven, he is the crown of the master of the horizon; he has counted the rings and bracelets, he has taken the hearts of the gods, he has devoured the Red Crown, he has eaten the White, the provisions of Unas are stuffed kidneys, his food is those whose hearts are fed with magic powers. Because he, Unas, he devours the things that break the Red crown, and he thrives because their magical virtues are in his stomach and the forms of Unas are not pushed away from him. He has eaten the wisdom of all the gods, and it is the life of Unas that endures, it is his time that is eternity, in this form those he likes, and those he hates does not enter within the horizon for ever and ever! Because their soul is in Unas, their spirits are with Unas in the abundance of good things that he has more abundantly than the good things of the gods; the flame of Unas is in their bones, because their soul is in Unas, their shadows are all together;
as Unas is with these two....

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2011, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspicuo

Who are Akerou, Ounas and Toum?

Unas (Ounas) is a dynasty V king, who was buried at Saqqara. This text is from his pyramid. I don't know who the others are!

UPDATE: Perhaps "Toum" is the Egyptian god Tum? Or Atum, the primordial deity? In which case calling him his father is part of Unas trying to become a god.

And "Akherou" is perhaps Aker, the two-headed earth deity?

(I'm just doing quick Google searches here, so could be wrong).

JonA · 07-01-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Here's a quick Google translate, smartened up a bit:

Quote:

The sky stands on water, the stars are fighting, the arrowhead on the beat, the bones of Akerou tremble and their vassals flee when they see Unas the rising soul, like a god who lives on his fathers and assimilated his mother; because it is Unas, the master of wisdom, whose mother does not know his name. The riches of Unas are in heaven and he is strong in the horizon like Toum his father, who fathered him, because, after Toum fathered him, Unas became stronger than him, because the doubles of Unas are behind him, his foot is under their feet, his gods are on them, his uraeus are on their temples, the guides of Unas are in front of them and the uraeus of flame sees his soul; the powers of Unas protect him, it is Unas the bull of heaven, who is held on the sidelines, who lives to become all the gods and who feeds on the flesh of those who come to fill their bellies from the spells of the pool of flame! It is Unas whose hand is against the military genies of the pool of flame, because Unas rises in chef as master of the spirits of violent arms and who is sitting with his back to Sib, and it is Unas who weighs the word with the god without name on the day of butchering the former gods, Unas is the lord of the offering, bringing the knots of rope and making himself an abundance of his possessions, it is Unas who eats men, which feeds on gods, the master of offerings, one that weighs the records of income. The bender of fronts who is in the field, has tied up the gods for Unas; the genie whose head is sacred, has recognized the good things for Unas and dragged them to him; the master of the band has chained them; Khonsu the master butcher has cut the throat for Unas and extracted their entrails; because he is he, the messenger god, that Unas sends to meet them. Shosmou has skinned them for Unas and cooked their pieces in his fiery cauldrons. It is Unas who devours their magic powers and eats their souls, and the great ones of them are for the morning meal of Unas, the middling of them for his roast, the least of them are for the evening dinner of Unas, the old and the oldest of them for his ovens! The great in heaven have rushed to the flame for Unas against the cauldrons filled with the thighs of their heirs, who marched the inhabitants of heaven in procession while Unas threw into pots the legs of their women, so that he has run twice around the sky, in its entirety, and has toured the two parts of Egypt; because it is the great type Unas, master of types, it is Unas the great sacred form of sacred forms, he who has found his way, he eats it eagerly, and the magic of Unas is superior to all the master forms of the horizon; it is Unas who is the heir superior to the heirs, he reviewed the thousands, he has made offerings to the hundreds, he has worked with his arm in his capacity as great form, that is to say Sahou, higher than the gods, Unas has renewed his elevation to heaven, he is the crown of the master of the horizon; he has counted the rings and bracelets, he has taken the hearts of the gods, he has devoured the Red Crown, he has eaten the White, the provisions of Unas are stuffed kidneys, his food is those whose hearts are fed with magic powers. Because he, Unas, he devours the things that break the Red crown, and he thrives because their magical virtues are in his stomach and the forms of Unas are not pushed away from him. He has eaten the wisdom of all the gods, and it is the life of Unas that endures, it is his time that is eternity, in this form those he likes, and those he hates does not enter within the horizon for ever and ever! Because their soul is in Unas, their spirits are with Unas in the abundance of good things that he has more abundantly than the good things of the gods; the flame of Unas is in their bones, because their soul is in Unas, their shadows are all together;
as Unas is with these two....

Beautiful!

You've been more than helpful in my quest. It appears that there are certainly hints of god-eating in the pyramid texts.

Now, of course, we must see just how comparable these are to the Eucharist rites, especially considering the varying nature of the Eucharist in early Christianity, as I mentioned in The Gospels & Paul:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Jon in The Lord's Supper in The Gospels & Paul:

Wilson tells us that the Ebionites enjoyed a communal meal more typical of a group of devout Jews:

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Wilson in How Jesus Became Christian (2008):

The Didache takes us into the heart of one of the Ebionites' major ceremonies, and here we are afforded a rare treat, a glimpse into how this ritual was really conducted. This was an actual mean, and the appropriate blessings are indicated. These are especially intriguing for they differ markedly from Paul's account of the Eucharist and from later Christian tradition, which built on Paul's version.
...
The meal starts with a blessing over the cup of wine:
We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the holy Vine of they servant David which thou has made known to us through thy servant Jesus (Didache 9).
We notice that, unlike contemporary Christian practice, this dinner starts with the cup of wine rather than the bread. This corresponds to the Jewish Sabbath evening rituals with its blessing of the children, blessing over the wine (Kiddush), washing of hands, and then blessing over the bread—the cup first, then the bread. It also reflects the same practice at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scroll community. ... It is authentically Jewish.
...
Next comes the breaking of bread with its blessing:
We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge thou hast made known to us through thy servant Jesus (Didache 9).
...
As a thanksgiving meal, the Didache's prayers ring truer as a celebration stemming from a Jewish Jesus than the alternate version that originated with Paul in the Diaspora. Hyam Maccoby, for instance, has pointed out a number of powerful objections to Pal's version of the ceremony. For one thing, it is exceptionally difficult to imagine the injunction to drink blood arising in a Jewish context. The whole idea would have been absolutely abhorrent. The Torah provided stern prohibitions against the consumption of blood (Leviticus 7:26). In addition, the laws pertaining to the ritual slaughter of animals required the draining of all blood from the meat so that none of it is ingested. Equating wine with blood and encouraging adherents to consume this just doesn't sound right in a Jewish context. It would be like having Jesus say that it's okay to eat pork. Just not credible. (pp. 158–161)

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
This custom is surprisingly similar to what we find in the gospel of Luke:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Luke 22:17–19a (NRSV):

Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, 'Take this and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.' Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body.

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

How do the beliefs in the pyramid texts compare to the rites of the Eucharist?

Jon
__________
Wilson, B. (2008) How Jesus Became Christian. New York: St. Martin's Press. (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Roger Pearse · 07-01-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Here's a quick Google translate, smartened up a bit:

It appears that there are certainly hints of god-eating in the pyramid texts.

Indeed; although the texts are obviously spells, and their meaning is consequently not necessarily literal. It is unlikely, for instance, that Unas was hoping to devour the Red crown literally: rather chewy, I'd have thought. The idea seems to be rather that Unas is absorbing the powers of the gods in order to become a god. But "absorbing" is just my nice wholesome 20th century AD phrase which doesn't involve shoving anything into any orifice. Possibly an ancient Egyptian might think of eating in the same way.

Quote:

Now, of course, we must see just how comparable these are to the Eucharist rites...

Using the term "eucharist" seems to me rather likely to carry some prejudicial baggage, and is by no means a normal Christian term, you know. I'd say instead "early Christian ritual meal", if I were trying to avoid skewing an investigation in any particular direction.

Incidentally very little is certainly known about the Ebionites, as we see as soon as we look at the sources. The best source is Epiphanius' "Panarion" in the 4th century. The idea that the Didache is an ebionite text is a curious one.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

JonA · 07-01-2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Indeed; although the texts are obviously spells, and their meaning is consequently not necessarily literal. It is unlikely, for instance, that Unas was hoping to devour the Red crown literally: rather chewy, I'd have thought. The idea seems to be rather that Unas is absorbing the powers of the gods in order to become a god. But "absorbing" is just my nice wholesome 20th century AD phrase which doesn't involve shoving anything into any orifice. Possibly an ancient Egyptian might think of eating in the same way.

What of symbolic eating? What of eating one thing that is meant to represent something else? Are the gods merely 'absorbed' straight-up?

Quote:

Using the term "eucharist" seems to me rather likely to carry some prejudicial baggage, and is by no means a normal Christian term, you know. I'd say instead "early Christian ritual meal", if I were trying to avoid skewing an investigation in any particular direction.

I mean nothing 'prejudicial' by the term; I simply use it out of familiarity.

Quote:

The idea that the Didache is an ebionite text is a curious one.

It's a connection Wilson makes. Whether a valid connection or not, the parts he quotes from the Didache certainly seem to indicate a pretty varied set of practices regarding the 'early Christian ritual meal'.

Jon

andrewcriddle · 07-02-2011, 12:55 AM

This is Budge's translation of the Unas Pyramid Text

Quote:

(496) The heavens drop water, the stars throb, (497) the archers go round about, the (498) bones of Akeru tremble, and those who are in bondage to them take to flight when they see (499) Unas rise up as a soul, in the form of the god who liveth upon his fathers and who maketh food of his (500) mothers. Unas is the lord of wisdom, and (501) his mother knoweth not his name. The gifts of Unas are in heaven, and he hath become mighty in the horizon (502) like unto Tmu, the father that gave him birth, and after Tmu gave him birth (503) Unas became stronger than his father. The ka's of Unas are behind him, the sole of his foot is beneath his feet, his gods are over him, his uræi are [seated] (504) upon his brow, the serpent guides of Unas are in front of him, and the spirit of the flame looketh upon [his]
soul. The (505) powers of Unas protect him; Unas is a bull in heaven, he directeth his steps where he will, he liveth upon the form which (506) each god taketh upon himself, and be eateth the flesh of those who come to fill their bellies with the magical charms ill the Lake of Fire. Unas is (507) equipped with power against the shining spirits thereof, and he riseth up in the form of the mighty one, the lord of those who dwell in power (?). Unas hath taken his seat with his side turned towards Seb. (508) Unas hath weighed his words with the hidden god (?) who hath no name, on the day of hacking in pieces the firstborn. Unas is the lord of offerings, the untier of the knot, and he himself maketh abundant the offerings of meat and drink. (509) Unas devoureth men and liveth upon the gods, he is the lord to whom offerings are brought, and he counteth the lists thereof. He that cutteth off hairy scalps and dwelleth in the fields hath netted the gods in a snare; (510) he that arrangeth his head hath considered them [good] for Unas and hath driven them unto him; and the cord-master hath bound them for slaughter. Khonsu the slayer of [his] lords hath cut their throats (511) and drawn out their inward parts, for it was he whom Unas sent to drive them in; and Shesem hath cut them in pieces and boiled their members in his blazing caldrons. (512) Unas hath eaten their magical powers, and he hath swallowed their spirits; the great ones among them serve for his meal at daybreak, the lesser serve for his meal at eventide, and the least among them serve for his meal in the night. (513) The old gods and the old goddesses become fuel for his furnace. The mighty ones in heaven shoot out fire under the caldrons which are heaped up with the haunches of the firstborn; and he that maketh those who live (514) in heaven to revolve round Unas hath shot into the caldrons the haunches of their women; he hath gone round about the two heavens in their entirety, and he hath gone round about the two banks of the celestial Nile. Unas is the great Form, the Form (515) of forms, and Unas is the chief of the gods in visible forms. Whatever he hath found upon his path he hath eaten forthwith, and the magical might of Unas is before that of all the (516) sahu who dwell in the horizon. Unas is the firstborn of the first born. Unas hath gone round thousands and he hath offered oblations unto hundreds; he hath manifested his might as the Great Form through Sah (Orion) [who is greater] than (517) the gods. Unas repeateth his rising in heaven and he is the crown of the lord of the horizon. He hath reckoned up the bandlets and the arm-rings, he hath taken possession of the hearts of the gods (518). Unas hath eaten the red crown, and he hath swallowed the white crown; the food of Unas is the inward parts, and his meat is those who live upon (519) magical charms in their hearts. Behold, Unas eateth of that which the red crown sendeth forth, he increaseth, and the magical charms of the gods are in his belly; (520) that which belongeth to him is not turned back from him. Unas hath eaten the whole of the knowledge of every god, and the period of his life is eternity, and the duration of his existence is (521) everlastingness, in whatsoever he wisheth to take; whatsoever form he hateth he shall not labour in in the horizon for ever and ever and ever. The soul of the gods is in Unas, their spirits are with (522) Unas, and the offerings made unto him are more than those made unto the gods. The fire of Unas (523) is in their bones, for their soul is with Unas, and their shades are with those who belong unto them. (524) Unas hath been with the two hidden (?) Kha (?) gods who are without power (?) . . . . . . . . (525); the seat of the heart of Unas is among those who live upon this earth for ever and ever and ever.

Andrew Criddle

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07-01-2011, 01:58 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Peter Gandy has been posting recently on the JesusMysteries list on yahoogroups. You could join that group and post the question, or email him directly. I suspect that the quotes are around what they thought was a paraphrase of the text, which does discuss eating gods.

07-01-2011, 02:33 PM	#14
Perspicuo Moderator - History of Non Abrahamic Religions, General Religious Discussions Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Latin America Posts: 6,620	Who are Akerou, Ounas and Toum?

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