Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 11-08-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

It is my understanding that one of, if not the, oldest written records is a Sumerian recipe for beer (c.3200BCE).

It is my understanding that the Indus Seals (of the Harrapan, or pre-
Harrapan civilisation) are older than c.3200 BCE.

Pete

Soul Invictus · 11-08-2006, 07:22 PM

This is a really interesting thread! Roger thanks for explaining the differences in the documents. I guess I am really interested in the literary ones also.

Roger Pearse · 11-09-2006, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Roger,
Great post!

You're very kind.

Quote:

I have one question, could some of the Sumerian Tablets dealing with religious themes predate the earliest Egyptian writings?

I would have thought so; Sumer is chronologically first, shortly followed by Egypt and the Indus Valley civilisation. But I really don't know what exists from these remote times in the way of written material.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 11-09-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Old European / Vinča
Origin
These symbols have been found on many of the artefacts excavated from sites in south-east Europe, in particular from Vinča near Belgrade, but also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia. The artefacts date from between the 7th and 4th millennia BC and those decorated with these symbols are between 8,000 and 6,500 years old.

Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

Anyone want a go at translating this?

Gamera · 11-09-2006, 03:51 PM

I believe that virtually all the mss from the major religions are post-Christian. That includes Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Toaist. Needless to say Islamic mss are much younger.

I don't mean that their religious texts were written after the rise of Christianty, only that most of the extant mss are post 5th century.

There are a few 1st century buddhist mss, as I recall. No early Hindu mss. And a hodgepoddge of Taoist mss, some older, some younger.

But in comparison with the other major religions, the Christian mss tradition has priority.

Roger Pearse · 11-10-2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I believe that virtually all the mss from the major religions are post-Christian. That includes Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Toaist. Needless to say Islamic mss are much younger.

The Dead Sea Scrolls material is pre-Christian, of course, although if I understand correctly the Hebrew mss of the OT are generally 10th century AD and later.

Mind you, people should try working with Syriac texts! In these, any manuscript older than 1800 AD is a rarity. We're even doing critical editions around 20th century manuscripts. My own interest in Thomas of Edessa, a 6th century writer, and De Epiphania (unpublished) shows that all the copies that now exist are based on a manuscript of uncertain age once at Seert and destroyed in WW1; a single copy of that from the abbey of Rabban Hormizd (Notre Dame des Semences) made in the 19th century may still exist in a cellar in Baghdad (the Chaldean patriarchate was bombed, so we really don't know); all the other copies are copied from that. I haven't even been able to get microfilms of the British Library or Birmingham copies!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Gamera · 11-16-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The Dead Sea Scrolls material is pre-Christian, of course, although if I understand correctly the Hebrew mss of the OT are generally 10th century AD and later.

Mind you, people should try working with Syriac texts! In these, any manuscript older than 1800 AD is a rarity. We're even doing critical editions around 20th century manuscripts. My own interest in Thomas of Edessa, a 6th century writer, and De Epiphania (unpublished) shows that all the copies that now exist are based on a manuscript of uncertain age once at Seert and destroyed in WW1; a single copy of that from the abbey of Rabban Hormizd (Notre Dame des Semences) made in the 19th century may still exist in a cellar in Baghdad (the Chaldean patriarchate was bombed, so we really don't know); all the other copies are copied from that. I haven't even been able to get microfilms of the British Library or Birmingham copies!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

It's bracing to think that the single ms we have of the OE Beowulf is older than probably 90% of the mss of most of the religious traditions on the planet.

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11-08-2006, 07:22 PM	#22
Soul Invictus Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 15,576	This is a really interesting thread! Roger thanks for explaining the differences in the documents. I guess I am really interested in the literary ones also.

11-09-2006, 03:51 PM	#25
Gamera Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 10,955	I believe that virtually all the mss from the major religions are post-Christian. That includes Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Toaist. Needless to say Islamic mss are much younger. I don't mean that their religious texts were written after the rise of Christianty, only that most of the extant mss are post 5th century. There are a few 1st century buddhist mss, as I recall. No early Hindu mss. And a hodgepoddge of Taoist mss, some older, some younger. But in comparison with the other major religions, the Christian mss tradition has priority.

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