Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 08-15-2007, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Send a PM to Chili.

Except that you will never see me defend, praise or pimp Jesus to others. I do recognize Jesus but only as a stepping stone to Mary.

I only read the script as a Jewish story. :wave:

aa5874 · 08-15-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

every knee shall bow...

That sounds like a classic magical formulation - abracadbra!

What might be special about the word Jesus?

What is special is the word 'name', which to the ancients meant not merely appellation, but thesis; a philosophical, political or religious position as represented by the person whose name was used.

But according to Josephus, even the leader of a gang of robbers was called Jesus.

The Life of Flavius Josephus 22,".... Accordingly, they sent to Jesus, the captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais....."

Clivedurdle · 08-16-2007, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalazel

You are right to ask about the magical nature of religion. There is among the laws of the practice of the magical arts one called The Law of Words (symbols) of Power. This law says that words are symbols that are able to change the inner and outer realities of those who use them.

The view is that words, as symbols, have accumulated power through use over the millennia. Some say there is an intrinsic connection between symbols and the forces and concepts they represent. Intrinsic because this process is beyond human design and is a function of the symbol itself.

Among these symbols are names. In magical systems a name is the thing named. It is to say that there is an analogical connection between the name and the thing named. This connection is created by the shared structure of the name/symbol and the named/object. Further, to know the true name of a place, person, or thing is to have complete control of over it.

How does this relate to the name of Jesus? This is not too difficult to work out. It is simply that to call upon the name of Jesus is raise ones’ self to the heavens. It is to accrue the power the symbolic name has collected over thousands of years.

Calling upon the name of a deity is to call upon the vast storehouse of energy that resides, not only in the name Jesus, but also the energy existing in the names of all deities. The name of Jesus is the path to the power of the eternal, infinite, Godhead for believers. To call upon the name of Jesus is to have control over him. To have control is to be able to bring desire to fulfillment. It is to be a co-creator with God.

I don’t expect any of you will accept the foundations of the magical arts as appropriate to the modern life. That is not my point. My perspective is that all religious thought is magical thinking. Few people, and assuredly few Christians, recognize the true nature of their beliefs. It does us a service in our debates with religionists to know the nature of their beliefs even when they don’t. Most especially when they don’t.

Baal

Fascinating. Where can I read more about this?

I am very interested how babies get thrown out with bath water here. The division between proper "religious" ideas and mumbo jumbo "magick" is an apologist technique that diverts attention from the now huge areas of knowledge about this, in for example psychology and anthropology. May I recommend Derren Brown?

Quote:

Messiah

Shown on 7 January 2005, Derren Brown travelled to the United States to try to convince five leading figures that he had powers in their particular field of expertise: Christian evangelism, alien abduction, psychic powers, New Age theories and contacting the dead.

Using a false name each time, he succeeded in convincing four of the five "experts" that he had powers, and they openly endorsed him as a true practitioner. The fifth expert, the Christian evangelist Curt Nordheilm, whilst impressed by Brown's performance, asked to meet him again before giving an endorsement. The concept of the show was to highlight the power of suggestion with regard to beliefs and people's abilities, and failure to question them. Brown made it quite clear with each experiment that if any of the subjects accused him of trickery he would immediately come clean about the whole thing, a rule similar to one of the self-imposed rules of the perpetrators of the Project Alpha hoax. His conclusion was that people tend to hear only things that support their own ideas and ignore contradictory evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown

Baalazel · 08-16-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am very interested how babies get thrown out with bath water here. The division between proper "religious" ideas and mumbo jumbo "magick" is an apologist technique that diverts attention from the now huge areas of knowledge about this, in for example psychology and anthropology. May I recommend Derren Brown?

We magicians rarely throw babies anymore. It is frowned upon by even the nuttiest of us. As for Mr. Brown he seems to be a bit of a jerk. If his point is that people can be led astray by smooth talkers I have no quarrel with him. My point is that it is more fruitful during debate to understand why religionists believe as they do. Their thinking is magical even when they strongly deny that it is.

If anyone would like to learn more about the magical arts I suggest they begin with Up From Eden (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Ken Wilbur, it is not text on magic but will give you a good foundation on the formulation of consciousness. From there you can move on. Barnes & Nobles has a section on the magical arts. You would benefit from reading Jung and Frankl. The Essential Jung (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Mans Search for Ultimate Meaning (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Baal

OneInFundieville · 08-17-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

every knee shall bow...

That sounds like a classic magical formulation - abracadbra!

What might be special about the word Jesus?

Post deconversion I have noticed how many hymns and praise songs talk about the name of Jesus, the name of the Lord, ...

It seems there's this whole intriguing level of indirection thing going on...

Quote:

O.E. nama, from P.Gmc. *namon (cf. O.Fris. nama, O.H.G. namo, Ger. Name, Du. naam, O.N. nafn, Goth. namo "name"), from PIE *nomn- (cf. Skt. nama, Avestan nama, Gk. onoma, onyma, L. nomen, O.C.S. ime, gen. imene, Rus. imya, O.Ir. ainm, O.Welsh anu). Meaning "one's reputation" is from c.1300. As a modifier meaning "well-known," first attested 1938. The verb is from O.E. namian. First record of namely "particularly, especially" is from c.1175. Name-calling is from 1853; name-dropper first recorded 1947. The name of the game "the essential thing or quality" is from 1966; to have one's name in lights "be a famous performer" is from 1929.

The name, the name, the name.

Blessed by the name of the Lord. In the name of the Father and the Son, ...

In the name of Jesus, we have the victory!

In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!

Something About the Name of Jesus by Kirk Franklin.

In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.

Shane Barnard's Praise the Name of Jesus being sung around a campfire.

And then there's even a next-level-removed level of indirection...

By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong.

Faith in the Name in Jesus.

To me this seems all in line with Dennett's descriptions of belief in belief.

But the name, back to the meaning and etymology of that word.

The name, the nom, the notion, the noun, the idea, of God/Jesus.

The concept.

The imaginary concept.

Lots and lots of the most mystically celebratory hymns and praise songs. Ancient and contemporary.

Everybody sings away at church.

And I'm wondering why do they keep singing about and celebrating the Name of the deity, the power of the Name of the deity rather than the actual deity itself???

Before...

Quote:

The name of Jesus is so sweet,
I love its music to repeat;
It makes my joys full and complete,
The precious name of Jesus.

Jesus! oh, how sweet the name,
Jesus! every day the same;
Jesus! let all saints proclaim
Its worthy praise forever.

I love the name of Him whose heart
Knows all my griefs and bears a part;
Who bids all anxious fears depart,
I love the name of Jesus.

That name I fondly love to hear,
It never fails my heart to cheer,
Its music dries the falling tear;
Exalt the name of Jesus.

No word of man can ever tell
How sweet the name I love so well,
Oh, let its praises ever swell,
Oh, praise the name of Jesus.

http://www.lyricsondemand.com/miscel...eetlyrics.html

After...

Quote:

The idea of Jesus is so sweet,
I love its music to repeat;
It makes my joys full and complete,
The precious idea of Jesus.

Jesus! oh, how sweet the idea,
Jesus! every day the same;
Jesus! let all saints proclaim
Its worthy praise forever.

I love the idea of Him whose heart
Knows all my griefs and bears a part;
Who bids all anxious fears depart,
I love the idea of Jesus.

That idea I fondly love to hear,
It never fails my heart to cheer,
Its music dries the falling tear;
Exalt the idea of Jesus.

No word of man can ever tell
How sweet the idea I love so well,
Oh, let its praises ever swell,
Oh, praise the idea of Jesus.

Or taking it one step further...

Quote:

The idea of an imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man is so sweet,
I love its music to repeat;
It makes my joys full and complete,
The precious idea of an imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man.

An imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man! oh, how sweet the idea,
An imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man! every day the same;
An imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man! let all saints proclaim
Its worthy praise forever.

I love the idea of Him whose heart
Knows all my griefs and bears a part;
Who bids all anxious fears depart,
I love the idea of an imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man.

That idea I fondly love to hear,
It never fails my heart to cheer,
Its music dries the falling tear;
Exalt the idea of Jesus.

No word of man can ever tell
How sweet the idea I love so well,
Oh, let its praises ever swell,
Oh, praise the idea of an imaginary, everything-to-me, perfect God-man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What might be special about the word Jesus?

Hope this helps.

Clivedurdle · 08-17-2007, 03:37 AM

Thank you OIF!

Sometimes I feel a nutter here for trying to point something out that others do not see and then someone else comes along and knows exactly what I am getting at!

Chili · 08-17-2007, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Thank you OIF!

Sometimes I feel a nutter here for trying to point something out that others do not see and then someone else comes along and knows exactly what I am getting at!

Those are typical fundiesongs and you can read more about them in Rev.13:11- to Rev.14:-12.

Ray Moscow · 08-18-2007, 04:01 AM

OK, two thoughts on the OP question:

In TJM chapter 6 (pg 142 in my copy), there is a discussion on the magic properties of the name Jesus (IESOUS). Using a gematria formula, the sum of 888 is reached -- which is a "magic" number since it is also the sum of the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet. The number 888 was also a way of representing a "whole tone" in Pythagorean symbolism (and incidently, 666 was a perfect fifth).

There is some speculation (?) that the particular spelling used is a forced transliteration of Yeshua so that this numerology would fit.

Some ancient Christian writers such as Origen made much of the power of the name of "Jesus" -- maybe this is what he meant.

In Robert Price's The Incredibly Shrinking Son of Man, the last chapter focuses on the early hymn perserved in Phillipians 2:6-11, in which the great name -- Jesus -- was bestowed on the Savior by God, after he had accomplished his saving work. If this is true, the "historical" narratives of Jesus were conjured up somewhat later than this earlier, mythic Christology.

Ray

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08-17-2007, 03:37 AM	#36
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Thank you OIF! Sometimes I feel a nutter here for trying to point something out that others do not see and then someone else comes along and knows exactly what I am getting at!

08-18-2007, 04:01 AM	#38
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	OK, two thoughts on the OP question: In TJM chapter 6 (pg 142 in my copy), there is a discussion on the magic properties of the name Jesus (IESOUS). Using a gematria formula, the sum of 888 is reached -- which is a "magic" number since it is also the sum of the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet. The number 888 was also a way of representing a "whole tone" in Pythagorean symbolism (and incidently, 666 was a perfect fifth). There is some speculation (?) that the particular spelling used is a forced transliteration of Yeshua so that this numerology would fit. Some ancient Christian writers such as Origen made much of the power of the name of "Jesus" -- maybe this is what he meant. In Robert Price's The Incredibly Shrinking Son of Man, the last chapter focuses on the early hymn perserved in Phillipians 2:6-11, in which the great name -- Jesus -- was bestowed on the Savior by God, after he had accomplished his saving work. If this is true, the "historical" narratives of Jesus were conjured up somewhat later than this earlier, mythic Christology. Ray

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