Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-06-2011, 12:57 AM

From an offhand comment in another thread, I chanced on this:

Sebastian Moll: Are Vegetarians Heretics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Vinzent

... Abstaining from meat is considered a sign of heresy. In the Canons of the Council of Ancyra (314) it is stated: “It is decreed that among the clergy, presbyters and deacons who abstain from flesh shall taste of it, and afterwards, if they shall so please, may abstain. But if they disdain it, and will not even eat herbs served with flesh, but disobey the canon, let them be removed from their order.” While never included into Church Law, this anathema is confirmed by several later councils, such as the Council of Braga (Portugal, 561-563), at which the anathema is expanded to include clergy and lay people alike.

In fact, many heretical groups in early Christianity practiced vegetarianism, for example the Marcionites and the Manicheans. ...

which led to The Heretic's Feast: A History of Vegetarianism (or via: amazon.co.uk) (previewed on google books)

From a review

Quote:

Pythagoras

The first prominent modern vegetarian was the Greek philosopher Pythagoras who lived towards the end of the 6th century BC. The Pythagorean diet came to mean an avoidance of the flesh of slaughtered animals. Pythagorean ethics first became a philosophical morality between 490-430 BC with a desire to create a universal and absolute law including injunctions not to kill "living creatures," to abstain from "harsh-sounding bloodshed," in particular animal sacrifice, and "never to eat meat."
The Vegetarian Heretics

Another big surge in vegetarianism came from the Manicheans in the early centuries AD. The Manicheans were a sect of "heretics" with vegetarianism as the centre of their beliefs, and were much reviled by the Christians. [It is for this reason that the book is called the Heretic's Feast] Manicheanism survived in the Near East as late as the seventh century AD and kept a foothold in China as late as the 16th century, the Manicheans being known as "vegetarian demon worshippers."

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:11 AM

It's late but I should mention that an early rabbinic treatise reports that there were some Jews who refrained from drinking wine and eating meat because of the destruction of the temple:

Quote:

Our Rabbis taught: When the Temple was destroyed for the second time, large numbers in Klal Israel became ascetics, forbidding themselves to neither to eat meat nor to drink wine. Rebi Yehoshua got into a conversation with them and said to them: "My sons, why do you not eat meat nor drink wine?"

They replied, "Shall we eat flesh which used to be brought as an offering on the altar, now that this altar is no more? Shall we drink wine which used to be poured as a libation on the altar, but now no longer?"

He said to them, "If that is so, we should not eat bread either, because the Meal-Offerings have ceased."

They said, "We can manage with fruit."

"We should not eat fruit either," [he said,] "because there is no longer the offering of first fruits."

"Then we can manage with other fruits."

"But," [he continued,] "we should not drink water, because there is no longer any ceremony of the pouring of water!"

They could find no answer for this, so he told them, "My sons, listen to me. Not to mourn at all is impossible, because the destruction has indeed occurred. However, to mourn too much is also not possible, because we do not impose on the community a hardship which the majority cannot bear . . . " (Malachi 3:9). (Bava Basra 60a)

I have strong suspicions this sect is related to the Marcionite (who after all did the very same thing). The same behavior associated with mourning - sexual abstention, wine abstention, vegetarianism - could also be viewed as an attempt at ritual purity. Moses refrained from sex, food and wine before ascending the mountain.

aa5874 · 09-06-2011, 08:31 AM

As early as Genesis 4 in the Bible, not even God had respect for a "VEGGIE" offering from Cain.

It would appear that God wants BLOOD to be spilled.

Well, Cain SPILLED the BLOOD of his brother and GOD still CURSED Cain.

Genesis 4:3-5 -

Quote:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

God had NO respect to VEGGIE offerings in Genesis. If you shed BLOOD of innocent animals the God in Genesis will RESPECT you.

No wonder the crucifixion story was regarded as a LOVE story in gJohn and the Pauline writings.

Adam and Eve ate a FRUIT and was THROWN out of the Garden of Eden, were DEEMED to be Sinners and condemned to sure death but God sent his OWN Jesus to be SLAUGHTERED for Remission of Sins.

maryhelena · 09-06-2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

As early as Genesis 4 in the Bible, not even God had respect for a "VEGGIE" offering from Cain.

It would appear that God wants BLOOD to be spilled.

Well, Cain SPILLED the BLOOD of his brother and GOD still CURSED Cain.

Genesis 4:3-5 -

Quote:

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

God had NO respect to VEGGIE offerings in Genesis. If you shed BLOOD of innocent animals the God in Genesis will RESPECT you.

No wonder the crucifixion story was regarded as a LOVE story in gJohn and the Pauline writings.

Adam and Eve ate a FRUIT and was THROWN out of the Garden of Eden, were DEEMED to Sinners and condemned to sure death but God sent his OWN Jesus to be SLAUGHTERED for Remission of Sins.

aa5874 - sometimes you are so good.....:wave:

avi · 09-06-2011, 10:24 AM

no. I don't agree.

Vegetarianism is a LUXURY in the dry, semiarid climate of the middle east. People cannot eat grass, which grows among rocks, even without abundant rainfall. A decision to forego the flesh of sheep, goats, chickens and fish, all of which are RELATIVELY plentiful in the region, demanding instead the opportunity to acquire all of the essential amino acids from non-animal sources of protein works in the EASTERN cultures: India/Pakistan, China, where the climate is generally more conducive to following a diet free from the requirement to consume animal flesh....The exceptions of course, include the peoples living along, and North of, the ancient silk route, through XinJiang (huge deserts), but, ironically, it was just from the silk route, that the Mediterranean peoples learned of the health benefits associated with avoiding consumption of animal flesh.

avi

mountainman · 09-06-2011, 08:46 PM

The google books preview from post #1 reveals that Chapter 5 entitled "Early Christianity" commences ....

"Would Christianity have beceome a worldwide religion if St. Paul had not existed"

Excellent thread.

The authors of the new testament seemed happy to present Jesus as gnawing on the bones of dead animals every passover. As aa5875 has pointed out above, the God of the Bible demands blood.

ON ABSTINENCE FROM ANIMAL FOOD authored by the 4th century heretic Porphyry.

aa5874 · 09-06-2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The google books preview from post #1 reveals that Chapter 5 entitled "Early Christianity" commences ....

"Would Christianity have beceome a worldwide religion if St. Paul had not existed"

Excellent thread.

The authors of the new testament seemed happy to present Jesus as gnawing on the bones of dead animals every passover. As aa5875 has pointed out above, the God of the Bible demands blood.

ON ABSTINENCE FROM ANIMAL FOOD authored by the 4th century heretic Porphyry.

It would appear that INVENTORS of Gods tend to INVENT Gods like themselves.

Toto · 01-22-2012, 09:15 PM

Moll has now published a short essay on bibleinterp:

Are Vegetarians Heretics?

It is disappointingly brief, but the comments are more interesting (I almost typed "meaty.")

09-06-2011, 08:46 PM	#6
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	The google books preview from post #1 reveals that Chapter 5 entitled "Early Christianity" commences .... "Would Christianity have beceome a worldwide religion if St. Paul had not existed" Excellent thread. The authors of the new testament seemed happy to present Jesus as gnawing on the bones of dead animals every passover. As aa5875 has pointed out above, the God of the Bible demands blood. ON ABSTINENCE FROM ANIMAL FOOD authored by the 4th century heretic Porphyry.

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09-06-2011, 10:24 AM	#5
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	no. I don't agree. Vegetarianism is a LUXURY in the dry, semiarid climate of the middle east. People cannot eat grass, which grows among rocks, even without abundant rainfall. A decision to forego the flesh of sheep, goats, chickens and fish, all of which are RELATIVELY plentiful in the region, demanding instead the opportunity to acquire all of the essential amino acids from non-animal sources of protein works in the EASTERN cultures: India/Pakistan, China, where the climate is generally more conducive to following a diet free from the requirement to consume animal flesh....The exceptions of course, include the peoples living along, and North of, the ancient silk route, through XinJiang (huge deserts), but, ironically, it was just from the silk route, that the Mediterranean peoples learned of the health benefits associated with avoiding consumption of animal flesh. avi

01-22-2012, 09:15 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Moll has now published a short essay on bibleinterp: Are Vegetarians Heretics? It is disappointingly brief, but the comments are more interesting (I almost typed "meaty.")

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