Peter Kirby

Can it be regarded as established that this is the same as the text recently published?

Irenaeus wrote (Adv. Haer. 1.31.1):

"Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."

The key points of Irenaeus's description are that:

(1) It is called the Gospel of Judas.
(2) It says that 'all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thrown into confusion by the betrayal.'
(3) It says that Judas knew a secret revelation.
(4) That revelation concerned Cain having 'being from the Power above' and being protected from the Creator by Sophia.

Are these all found in the Gospel of Judas recently published?

The first and third are an obvious 'check'.

The second is not obvious. If you look at the end of Judas, nothing seems to be thrown in confusion by the betrayal. But if you look at the dialogue, Judas does seem to be the kind of person who might throw heaven and earth into confusion, being the only one alive (the thirteenth) who will be part of the holy generation.

The fourth seems to be negative. The text identifies Seth with Christ, but has nothing to say about Cain (as extant). The only mention of Sophia refers to 'corruptible Sophia' (in the translation as reconstructed by the scholars).

Now, (1) and (3) practically go together. A Gospel of Judas is likely to talk about a secret revelation known to Judas. So the question I have is...was there more than one Gospel of Judas?

We know, for example, that there is more than one Apocalypse of Peter, more than one Apocalypse of James, and more than one Acts of Pilate. There's a Gospel of Mark, disciple of Peter, and a 'Gospel of Peter'. Could there have been one Gospel of Judas drawn up by Cainites, and another (later?) Gospel of Judas drawn up by Sethites?

For the most important point that Irenaeus makes about his text is that it is associated with Cain, but Cain does not figure in the Gospel of Judas we've found.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Chris Weimer

"Was there more than one Gospel of Judas?"

Most assuredly. The Cainites, if my memory serves me, sprouted up in different times by different groups. It's was an offbranch of that particular gnosticism which emphasized the rebels against god as the good guys. It's seems that for anyone to hold El/Yahweh as the Demiurge, then the bad guys become good.

Peter Kirby

Hmmm. How do the subsequent considerations support the initial 'Most assuredly'? I'm just not seeing the connection.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Chris Weimer

Er, I suppose they don't. Perhaps I was too enthusiastic. I should have said, "It's very possible."

To the point, different groups with similar messages in different places are going to write different things. It's why we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Thomas, Egerton, etc... I'm not saying that the two are totally isolated, but it fits with what we know about that time, especially in lieu of the Irenaeus' quote.

Roger Pearse

But trivial, since any gnostic text whatever would probably fulfil this condition; and all the second century ps.gospels known to me are gnostic. So these do not, of themselves offer information either way.

But since the text is apparently incomplete, it is possible that it was present in the lost ending.

This is open to the same issue: the text as we have it is incomplete. Perhaps there was a section where the risen Jesus briefed Judas, in which such a teaching might appear? But on the whole I think that this point is the most weighty. If the texts are the same, there should be more of this sort of stuff in it.

And several ps.gospels of Thomas, of course.

IMHO: Yes it is possible that there was more than one. No we cannot say this on the basis of the evidence, so we should presume identity for now, on the basis that one should not multiply witnesses unnecessarily.

But others may have some other take, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

Some scholars doubt whether there ever was a group of Gnostics calling themselves 'Cainites'. It may be a derogatory name given to certain Gnostic groups by their opponents.

However, 'Against All Heresies' by Pseudo-Tertullian and the 'Panarion' of Epiphanius both seem to associate the Cainites with the Sethians.

The cosmology of the recently published Gospel of Judas appears to be clearly Sethian which may possibly support a Cainite connection.

Andrew Criddle

Peter Kirby

Do we know whether the text of our Coptic Gospel of Judas did have a lost ending, or whether it actually did end at the point where we currently see "Peuaggelion Nioudas" (The gospel of Judas) written?

I disagree with the idea that the Gospel of Judas might have contained a post-resurrection discourse with Judas, because the first line says that the revelation to Judas took place in the week before Pascha.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Roger Pearse

I don't see that we do know this for certain. On the other hand the last few sheets of a codex often go astray.

Indeed: but the story continues after that revelation is presumably complete, with the high priests approaching Judas, and money changing hands. Had this not been present, I agree that your point would be definitive.

All the best,

Roger Pearse