gstafleu

When it comes to Jesus' sayings, the one where he says that "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 19:19, Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27) is often seen as one of his most profound and original ones. To modern Western minds the meaning of this saying can be a bit enigmatic, though: how, after all, can we possibly love relative strangers as much as we love ourselves? But that depends on the meaning of the word "love."

In her book The Great Transformation, Karen Armstrong may provide some insight into this. She is talking about the P author of the old testament, which is at least half a millennium before the time of Jesus, so if what she says about the meaning of "to love" is still valid in Jesus' time is a question. But the comment is still interesting:
The first thing we notice is that the commandment to love a neighbor, and specifically "a stranger in your land," like yourself, can already be found in Leviticus, and hence was not original to Jesus or the tradition surrounding him. The second, more interesting, thing is that, at least during P's time, the meaning of to "love" was a very practical one. With this meaning, the commandment "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" becomes simply a version of the Golden Rule, which, in its many variations and permutations, says that you should treat others as you treat yourself, or as you want yourself to be treated: help him/her like you would help yourself, be loyal to him/her as you would be loyal to yourself, support him/her as you would support yourself.

So, assuming that the meaning that Armstrong gives for "to love" in the time of P still holds in Jesus' time, Jesus commandment "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" now becomes much more understandable. It is not some weird utopian attitude he dreamt up, it is simply a restatement of the well-known Golden Rule. True, it turns out that Jesus did not originate the idea, but it also turns out that what he was after is something that is actually understandable and doable.

Provided of course that the meaning of "to love" that Jesus had in mind was the one Armstrong states for the time of P. Maybe our linguistic historians can comment on that?

Gerard Stafleu

mountainman

See Kersey Graves -- "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors",
Chapter 31: Christianity Derived from Heathen and Oriental Systems,
a parallel exhibition of the precepts and
practical lives of Christ and the Essenes.

The notion is not new. I am not sure of
other writers mentioning it.

gstafleu

No, it isn't. But Confucius is usually dated something around 500BCE, although the Analects, from which we know him, are dated as "Written during the Spring and Autumn Period through the Warring States Period (ca. 479 BC - 221 BC)" (Analects). So when is Leviticus dated? According to Leviticus: "According to the documentary hypothesis, Leviticus derives almost entirely from the priestly source (P), marked by emphasis on priestly concerns, composed c 550-400 BC, and incorporated into the Torah c 400 BC." So as to who got on first first, we seem to have a tie with a slight advantage for the P guys.

Except if Leviticus was written by Moses, or Adam or some other toledoth-derivation, but we probably shouldn't go there.

Gerard

Toto

Please do not cite Kersey Graves as authority for anything. Please read Richard Carrier's explanation.

Thank you.

mountainman

Richard Carrier on that page admits the following:

Does this presuppose Richard Carrier to be in possession of the
truthful conclusions about the origins of the Christ story?

I dont think so.

Anyway, thanks for the reference to this page Toto.

aa5874

It also depends on who actually said those words, perhaps it was the authors of the Gospels and not Jesus, the son of the ghost. And if it was the authors, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself" probably means that "You should treat everyone equally" and this motto would have been accepted as reasonable long before the 1st century.

gstafleu

I don't think it depends on who said it. Even if the gospel author(s) came up with it, the question still is: where did it come from and what does it mean. At least on this forum I think it has been said more than once that the saying is reasonably unique to Jesus (or the gospel authors), as well as a bit on the utopian side. My point in this thread is that, going by the meaning supplied by Armstrong, it is not utopian. Plus it obviously is in no way unique to Jesus: we don't even need to go outside the bible to find an earlier version.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle

Off topic, but we don't know that, and all this stuff about fish and rebirth and the fact that December 25 is the date when the sun is reborn is extremely fishy!

On Love your neighbour, what is the purpose of this teaching? God in his wisdom has given us his son to die for us, why is this such an important thing to tell us? What else might he have said? Soap? Germ theory? Slavery?

Is the morality that special really?

Gamera

Actually Jesus himself doesn't think it is that profound. He's just quoting the Hebrew Scriptures. Moreover, in the Sermon on the Mount he denouncing this particular bit of wisdom as wholly inadequate.

Matthew 5:
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Now, loving your enemy -- that truly IS profound, and not really found anywhere else before this.