Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 02-24-2012, 04:33 AM

(my thanks to PhilosopherJay for inspiring the title of this OP: http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....46#post6700946)

I’ve been reading ‘The Mystery of Acts’ by Richard Pervo and have been thinking that he has, perhaps inadvertently, added some grist to the mill re debate over ‘Paul’. What has jumped from the pages is the question - is Paul a Jesus reboot? (in that other thread linked above - the question of Jesus being a reboot of JtB was discussed). So, here is a chart from Richard Pervo’s book that details a number of parallels between JC and Paul.

Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

Jesus	Paul
1. "Passion Predictions"	1. "Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22	Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34	Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31	Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address	2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38	Acts 20:17-35
3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose	3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39	Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus	4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64	Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trial" of Jesus	5. Four "Trials" of Paul
A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71	A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5	B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12	C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25	D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence	6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22)	Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14	Festus: Acts 25:25
Centurian: Luke 23:47	Agrippa: Acts 26:31
7. Mob Demands Execution	7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18	Acts 22:22

Quote:

Page 108

The point has been made. The parallels between the passion of Jesus in Luke and Paul’s experiences in Jerusalem are too numerous and too transparent to deny. But after chapter 26 this symmetry seems to collapse. Whereas the Gospel goes on to relate the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Acts narrates Paul’s voyage, shipwreck, survival, and eventual arrival in Rome. This much remains undeniable: the voyage and its aftermath occupy the same structural position in Acts as the crucifixion and its sequel have in Luke. The alternatives are clear: either Luke carefully erected his parallelism between the respective fates of Jesus and Paul until he came to the end of their legal hearings and then dropped it overboard, or the existence of the parallel scheme invites critics towards further inquiry. The later looks like the more likely option. At the very least it is worth a try.

Richard Pervo goes on to discuss Paul’s shipwreck scenario.

Quote:

Page 109/110

Nearly all interpreters agree that Acts 27:1-28;14 has some symbolic meaning. By general consensus this narrative adds one more declaration of innocence to the list in Table 6.1: Paul is proclaimed innocent by God. That declaration is encapsulated in the final and climatic episode of the shipwreck, 28:1-6, where a lethal serpent fails to harm the hero. In other words, Paul is vindicated by the outcome of his adventures. This is an obvious, essential, and conclusive point. Just as God vindicated Jesus through resurrection, God vindicated Paul through deliverance from death by water and by poison.

Quote:

Page 113

By reading these accounts as individual and general stories of new life, the critic delivers Luke the author from the perils of literary catastrophe, but the historical price that must be paid for this liberation is substantial. Luke the narrative theologian receives high marks, but the question of whether Luke can be story teller, theologian, and historian looks more and more like a case of critics who wish to have their cake and eat it too.

The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Chili · 02-24-2012, 05:10 AM

Neet! Paul was the living faith in action and the evidence that 'this generation will not pass' to see the return of Jesus among men as 'the way' to show us how.

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2012, 05:20 AM

Excellent OP. Lots of meat.

Could the voyage be a replay of Gethsemane since Paul is on his way to trial by Caesar? It has some of the same themes: followers who lose faith, breaking of bread before the end, appearing before the Jewish leaders before his roman trial....

maryhelena · 02-24-2012, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Excellent OP. Lots of meat.

Could the voyage be a replay of Gethsemane since Paul is on his way to trial by Caesar? It has some of the same themes: followers who lose faith, breaking of bread before the end, appearing before the Jewish leaders before his roman trial....

I found no mention of the Gethsemane scenario in Pervo’s interpretation of Paul’s shipwreck story. It’s basically an interpretation dealing with ‘resurrection’, with renewal. And perhaps that is the best way to approach Acts. Once it is admitted that Acts presents problems - Pervo has two chapters dealing with text, chronology and characterization - then a more interpretative approach might produce results that are forward moving...

Quote:

Page 108/109/110/111

Voyage by ship and the travail of “those in peril on the sea” provides one of the most productive narrative themes and literary symbols in ancient literature…..

…An apocalyptic background is of major importance for understanding the voyage of Paul to Rome, not least because apocalyptic imagery is also prominent in the account of Jesus’ crucifixion. In this voyage the end will also be a beginning. In short, the basic presuppositions supporting the search for symbolism in Acts 27-28 are the following: Acts 20-26 narrates a “passion of Paul”. Where the Gospel tells of the execution of Jesus and his subsequent vindication through resurrection, Acts tells the story of the voyage. Sea-travel was a basic ingredient of ancient adventure and therefore became a favourite medium for figurative exposition, including the struggle of the individual against self and the storms of life, as well as the image of the community in distress……

….In addition to the general theme of storm as apocalyptic chaos, two specific allusions are evocative of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Acts 27:20-38 is a time of darkness. With day (v,39) comes salvation. As in Acts 12 darkness is a common *trope for death, so here light suggests life/resurrection. Just as Jesus’ death was marked by a failure of the sun’s light, so on the ship: “neither sun nor stars appeared for many days….” (Acts 27:20) Failure of the sun and stars is one sign of the imminent advent of God (see Luke 21:25…)Luke envelops the “deaths” of both Jesus and Paul with an atmosphere of apocalyptic finality....

….Acts 27:33-35 reports a brief meal scene. Although Paul could not “celebrate the eucharist” for polytheists, Eucharistic allusions are present in the description of three of the four Eucharistic actions, taking bread, blessing, and breaking. Sharing is omitted (although included in the longer “Western Text” - see p.23), but even so this nourishment “saves” all those who eat thereof……

…..Paul was the agent of deliverance for all on the ship. He can even borrow a promise from Jesus: no one will lose so much as a hair (27:34). Since this promise comes from Jesus’ speech on the last things, Luke 21:18, it may be added to the list of items with apocalyptic resonance. Paul is becoming a bit of a savior figure in his own right

Chili · 02-24-2012, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

[
….In addition to the general theme of storm as apocalyptic chaos, two specific allusions are evocative of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Acts 27:20-38 is a time of darkness. With day (v,39) comes salvation. As in Acts 12 darkness is a common *trope for death, so here light suggests life/resurrection. Just as Jesus’ death was marked by a failure of the sun’s light, so on the ship: “neither sun nor stars appeared for many days….” (Acts 27:20) Failure of the sun and stars is one sign of the imminent advent of God (see Luke 21:25…)Luke envelops the “deaths” of both Jesus and Paul with an atmosphere of apocalyptic finality....

Paul's job was also to remove the historic element from the Gospels to bring the event alive as a certain stage of life so that we may recognize it when we get there. Water becomes significant to foreshadow intuition as opposed to words we have learned to rely on to the meter and our pace in life.

There is nothing that will shake us like a storm at sea as even a plane cannot fall out of the air.

maryhelena · 02-24-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Excellent OP. Lots of meat.

Could the voyage be a replay of Gethsemane since Paul is on his way to trial by Caesar? It has some of the same themes: followers who lose faith, breaking of bread before the end, appearing before the Jewish leaders before his roman trial....

Re Gethsemane

Pervo does mention this in connection with Peter (not Paul). Pervo is viewing the story of Peter’s imprisonment and Paul’s shipwreck as being symbolic passion narratives. He does not have a chart detailing the Peter/Jesus parallels. (He has referenced Acts 12:12 with Luke 22:39-46).

Quote:

Page 100

The thesis of this section is that in Acts 12 and 27-28 Luke recounts the passion, death, and resurrection first of Peter and then of Paul…

While a ‘passion’ narrative can be read into both the imprisonment of Peter and the shipwreck of Paul - the Paul/Jesus parallels are far more evident, ie the Paul/Jesus parallels are, as Pervo himself has done, easy to list.

The Peter imprisonment story is, to my thinking, a far more complex story. If Paul can be viewed as a Jesus reboot - then perhaps Peter could be viewed as a JtB reboot…

The Peter story is complicated by the reference to “Herod the King”. Usually interpreted to be Agrippa I. Yes, undoubtedly, there are references in the Acts account that link up with the Josephan story re Agrippa I - and thus, that linkage has been used to date Peter’s imprisonment. I’m not sure - are there any coins that state that Agrippa I used the Herodian family name of Herod? As for Josephus and his Agrippa I story with its messianic overtones - lots there that requires investigating. And of course, once one has to deal with history one has to put interpretation aside and deal with reality. So, while Pervo has done good work re his symbolic interpretations of the Peter and Paul ‘passion’ stories - methinks there is a lot more to the Peter and Agrippa I story than meets the eye. A negative portrayal in Acts and a positive portrayal in Josephus - should be raising a historical red flag….

As for Pervo’s Jesus and Paul parallels re the passion narratives - perhaps a step towards unlocking that ‘mystery’ that Acts is so full of - starting with that last hurdle facing the ahistoricist/mythicists - Paul.

Quote:

Page 156

Deriving history from Acts is an enterprise fraught with difficulty. I firmly maintain that Luke the Historian has very little to wear and have striven to demonstrate the point, but I shall not close without acknowledging my admiration (and even envy) for the splendid outfit worn by Luke the author. In that costume lurk mysteries galore, and because of it the story of Christian origins is more mysterious than ever.

Duvduv · 02-24-2012, 01:06 PM

I think the most interesting thing about this chart is that it shows that the writer of chapters 20-26 seemed to have been aware of the story described by the author of Luke.

I had wondered whether the portion dealing with Saul was one story written by one writer, followed by the story of Paul by another writer.

HOWEVER, we see that although Saul is introduced in Acts 7:58, the parallels according to this chart begin only at chapter 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

(my thanks to PhilosopherJay for inspiring the title of this OP: http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....46#post6700946)

I’ve been reading ‘The Mystery of Acts’ by Richard Pervo and have been thinking that he has, perhaps inadvertently, added some grist to the mill re debate over ‘Paul’. What has jumped from the pages is the question - is Paul a Jesus reboot? (in that other thread linked above - the question of Jesus being a reboot of JtB was discussed). So, here is a chart from Richard Pervo’s book that details a number of parallels between JC and Paul.

Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

Jesus	Paul
1. "Passion Predictions"	1. "Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22	Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34	Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31	Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address	2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38	Acts 20:17-35
3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose	3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39	Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus	4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64	Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trial" of Jesus	5. Four "Trials" of Paul
A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71	A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5	B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12	C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25	D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence	6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22)	Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14	Festus: Acts 25:25
Centurian: Luke 23:47	Agrippa: Acts 26:31
7. Mob Demands Execution	7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18	Acts 22:22

Quote:

Page 108

The point has been made. The parallels between the passion of Jesus in Luke and Paul’s experiences in Jerusalem are too numerous and too transparent to deny. But after chapter 26 this symmetry seems to collapse. Whereas the Gospel goes on to relate the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Acts narrates Paul’s voyage, shipwreck, survival, and eventual arrival in Rome. This much remains undeniable: the voyage and its aftermath occupy the same structural position in Acts as the crucifixion and its sequel have in Luke. The alternatives are clear: either Luke carefully erected his parallelism between the respective fates of Jesus and Paul until he came to the end of their legal hearings and then dropped it overboard, or the existence of the parallel scheme invites critics towards further inquiry. The later looks like the more likely option. At the very least it is worth a try.

Richard Pervo goes on to discuss Paul’s shipwreck scenario.

Quote:

Page 113

By reading these accounts as individual and general stories of new life, the critic delivers Luke the author from the perils of literary catastrophe, but the historical price that must be paid for this liberation is substantial. Luke the narrative theologian receives high marks, but the question of whether Luke can be story teller, theologian, and historian looks more and more like a case of critics who wish to have their cake and eat it too.

The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo (or via: amazon.co.uk)

mountainman · 02-24-2012, 10:51 PM

Paul and/or Jesus as "Reboots"

Some technical questions and answers from the peanut, hedgehog and mouse gallery ...

1) What operating systems were used?

Greek. Specifically it uses the Greek LXX OS. Fundamental copy/paste operations are plainly detectable between the LXX OS and the Paul (and Jesus) reboots. A Hebrew OS does not appear in the evidence until a very late release date.

2) What hardware was used?

Amazingly we are able to look at the manuscript evidence and say that the Paul and Jesus reboots used the codex, almost exclusively, which is astounding. These people were ahead of their time.

3) What happened to the reboots on the open market?

The sudden infestation of clones. There were more apostles and other identities rebooting in gospels and acts than ever before seen on planet Earth. It was almost a clone war between the orthodox and heretical reboots.

4) What security was used to protect the name of God?

Encyrption of "sacred names" was implemented apparently at the first release of the Paul and Jesus reboot programs. These were also found in the Greek LXX. Curiously, the same encyrption codes were used by the heretical clones, not just for the Paul reboot.

5) Where does Paul as a Jesus reboot interface reality?

Many see 1st century parallels between Paul and Apollonius and between Jesus and Apollonius. Many see the emergence of the Pauline OS as a 2nd century phenomenom. The same may be said for the Jesus OS. The 3rd century looms in the threads more than it did before ....

6) Reboot SHUTDOWNS

The Jesus reboot was supposedly shutdown by Pilate, the Paul reboot by Nero, but who in their right mind believes the glossy FAQ delivered with the religious operating systems? We may assume that the programmers wanted us to belive that the Paul reboot shutdown and Jesus reboot shutdown were dealt with by Roman Governors and Emperors.

maryhelena · 02-24-2012, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Paul and/or Jesus as "Reboots"

Some technical questions and answers from the peanut, hedgehog and mouse gallery ...

1) What operating systems were used?

Greek. Specifically it uses the Greek LXX OS. Fundamental copy/paste operations are plainly detectable between the LXX OS and the Paul (and Jesus) reboots.

2) What hardware was used?

Amazingly we are able to look at the manuscript evidence and say that the Paul and Jesus reboots used the codex, almost exclusively, which is astounding. These people were ahead of their time.

3) What happened to the reboots on the open market?

The sudden infestation of clones. There were more apostles and other identities rebooting in gospels and acts than ever before seen on planet Earth. It was almost a clone war between the orthodox and heretical reboots.

4) What security was used to protect the name of God?

Encyrption of "sacred names" was implemented apparently at the first release of the Paul and Jesus reboot programs. These were also found in the Greek LXX.

5) Where does Paul as a Jesus reboot interface reality?

Many see 1st century parallels between Paul and Apollonius and between Jesus and Apollonius. Many see the emergence of the Pauline OS as a 2nd century phenomenom. The same may be said for the Jesus OS. The 3rd century looms in the threads more than it did before ....

6) Reboot SHUTDOWNS

The Jesus reboot was supposedly shutdown by Pilate, the Paul reboot by Nero, but who in their right mind believes the glossy FAQ delivered with the religious operating systems?

Pete - very nice! Unfortunately, I don't have any prizes to hand out - but top marks nevertheless....:notworthy:

maryhelena · 02-24-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I think the most interesting thing about this chart is that it shows that the writer of chapters 20-26 seemed to have been aware of the story described by the author of Luke.

I had wondered whether the portion dealing with Saul was one story written by one writer, followed by the story of Paul by another writer.

HOWEVER, we see that although Saul is introduced in Acts 7:58, the parallels according to this chart begin only at chapter 20.

If Pervo, or anyone else, is going to do a straight parallel - ie this in 'Paul's story corresponds to that in the JC story - dot for dot, line by line, then we are not dealing with parallels at all but with a straightforward correspondence or linkage of the two figures. Luke, if that is the name of the author of gLuke and Acts - was far more sophisticated a writer than that. The author wants one to think not just read....

As to two writers, one for Saul and one for Paul - no reason, as far as I'm aware for that. However, this name changing business should perhaps be noted - these characters just might not be who we think they are - on a surface reading....

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

(my thanks to PhilosopherJay for inspiring the title of this OP: http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....46#post6700946)

I’ve been reading ‘The Mystery of Acts’ by Richard Pervo and have been thinking that he has, perhaps inadvertently, added some grist to the mill re debate over ‘Paul’. What has jumped from the pages is the question - is Paul a Jesus reboot? (in that other thread linked above - the question of Jesus being a reboot of JtB was discussed). So, here is a chart from Richard Pervo’s book that details a number of parallels between JC and Paul.

Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo

Jesus	Paul
1. "Passion Predictions"	1. "Passion Predictions"
Luke 9:22	Acts 20:23-25
Luke 9:34	Acts 21:4
Luke 18:31	Acts 21:11-13
2. Farewell Address	2. Farewell Address
Luke 22:14-38	Acts 20:17-35
3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose	3. Ressurrection: Sadducees Oppose
Luke 20:27-39	Acts 23:6-10
4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus	4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul
Luke 22:63-64	Acts 23:1-2
5. Four "Trial" of Jesus	5. Four "Trials" of Paul
A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71	A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10
B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5	B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22
C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12	C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26
D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25	D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12
6. Declarations of Innocence	6. Declarations of Innocence
Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22)	Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29
Herod: Luke 23:14	Festus: Acts 25:25
Centurian: Luke 23:47	Agrippa: Acts 26:31
7. Mob Demands Execution	7. Mob Demands Execution
Luke 23:18	Acts 22:22

Quote:

Page 108

The point has been made. The parallels between the passion of Jesus in Luke and Paul’s experiences in Jerusalem are too numerous and too transparent to deny. But after chapter 26 this symmetry seems to collapse. Whereas the Gospel goes on to relate the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Acts narrates Paul’s voyage, shipwreck, survival, and eventual arrival in Rome. This much remains undeniable: the voyage and its aftermath occupy the same structural position in Acts as the crucifixion and its sequel have in Luke. The alternatives are clear: either Luke carefully erected his parallelism between the respective fates of Jesus and Paul until he came to the end of their legal hearings and then dropped it overboard, or the existence of the parallel scheme invites critics towards further inquiry. The later looks like the more likely option. At the very least it is worth a try.

Richard Pervo goes on to discuss Paul’s shipwreck scenario.

Quote:

Page 113

By reading these accounts as individual and general stories of new life, the critic delivers Luke the author from the perils of literary catastrophe, but the historical price that must be paid for this liberation is substantial. Luke the narrative theologian receives high marks, but the question of whether Luke can be story teller, theologian, and historian looks more and more like a case of critics who wish to have their cake and eat it too.

The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo (or via: amazon.co.uk)

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02-24-2012, 05:10 AM	#2
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Neet! Paul was the living faith in action and the evidence that 'this generation will not pass' to see the return of Jesus among men as 'the way' to show us how.

02-24-2012, 05:20 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Excellent OP. Lots of meat. Could the voyage be a replay of Gethsemane since Paul is on his way to trial by Caesar? It has some of the same themes: followers who lose faith, breaking of bread before the end, appearing before the Jewish leaders before his roman trial....

02-24-2012, 10:51 PM	#8
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Paul and/or Jesus as "Reboots" Some technical questions and answers from the peanut, hedgehog and mouse gallery ... 1) What operating systems were used? Greek. Specifically it uses the Greek LXX OS. Fundamental copy/paste operations are plainly detectable between the LXX OS and the Paul (and Jesus) reboots. A Hebrew OS does not appear in the evidence until a very late release date. 2) What hardware was used? Amazingly we are able to look at the manuscript evidence and say that the Paul and Jesus reboots used the codex, almost exclusively, which is astounding. These people were ahead of their time. 3) What happened to the reboots on the open market? The sudden infestation of clones. There were more apostles and other identities rebooting in gospels and acts than ever before seen on planet Earth. It was almost a clone war between the orthodox and heretical reboots. 4) What security was used to protect the name of God? Encyrption of "sacred names" was implemented apparently at the first release of the Paul and Jesus reboot programs. These were also found in the Greek LXX. Curiously, the same encyrption codes were used by the heretical clones, not just for the Paul reboot. 5) Where does Paul as a Jesus reboot interface reality? Many see 1st century parallels between Paul and Apollonius and between Jesus and Apollonius. Many see the emergence of the Pauline OS as a 2nd century phenomenom. The same may be said for the Jesus OS. The 3rd century looms in the threads more than it did before .... 6) Reboot SHUTDOWNS The Jesus reboot was supposedly shutdown by Pilate, the Paul reboot by Nero, but who in their right mind believes the glossy FAQ delivered with the religious operating systems? We may assume that the programmers wanted us to belive that the Paul reboot shutdown and Jesus reboot shutdown were dealt with by Roman Governors and Emperors.

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