Amedeo

In the agricultural Age of mankind, many creation stories were told. Two stories are present in Genesis:1 and Genesis:2 of the Bible.

Two related questions may be asked:

(1) Are the Biblical creation stories true? (This is NOT the same question as to whether a creation occurred. The question is whether the creations narrated in the Bible really occurred.)

(2) Were the Gods asserted long ago in the Bible (namely the Elohim and Yahveh) real? (I ask the question in the past tense, since I am referring to their creations long ago and to their interventions in the world, of which there are obviously no assertions after the last part of the Bible. Of course, one may deal with gods after the closing of the Bible, but that's a different issue.)

Any reasonable answer?
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Philotheos Amygdale

Gawen

Is there any reasonable answer for the gods listed below?

Adrammelech ...II Kings 17:31... Sepharvite God.
Anammelech ...II Kings 17:31... Sepharvite God.
Ashima ...II Kings 17:30.... Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth ...I Kings 11:05 ... Canaanite Goddess.
Baal ... I Kings 18:19... Canaanite God ("Lord") of fertility, vegitation, and storms.

Baal-berith ...Judges 8:33... A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor ...Numbers 25:03... Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebub ...Luke 11:19... Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.

Baalim ...I Kings 18:18... Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.

Bel ...Isiah 46:01... Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God ("Lord").
Chemosh ...I Kings 11:07... Moabite war God.
Dagon ...I Samuel 05:02... Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God of agriculture.

Diana of the Ephesians ...Acts 19:35.... Ephesian moon and nature Goddess, ("Divine/Brilliant").

Jehovah ...Exodus 6:03... Hebrew God
Jupiter ...Acts 14:12... Roman God (possibly derived from 'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer ...Isiah 14:12 ... ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius ...Acts 14:12 ... Otherwise known as the Roman God Mercury, God of communication and travel, and messenger of the Gods...which is probably why Paul was called this at Lystra.

Milcom ...I Kings 11:05... Ammonite God
Molech ...I Kings 11:07... Ammonite God, also called Moloch, most probably Baal-Hammon of Carthage.

Nebo ...Isiah 46:01... Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of wisdom and writing, also called Nergal.

Nabu. ...II Kings 17:30... Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld God, also called Meshlamthea.

Nibhaz ...II Kings 17:31... Avites God
Nisroch ...II Kings 19:37... Assyrian God
Rimmon ...II Kings 05:18 ... Babylonian/Syrian storm God involved (as Ramman) with the Deluge, according to Hebrew texts; also known as Ramman/Rammon.

Succoth-benoth ...II Kings 17:30 ... Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She Who Produces Seed"), also known as Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.

Tammuz ...Ezekial 8:14... Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak ...II Kings 17:31... Avites God

Amedeo

I believe you missed the point of my question. The question was not whether the gods of antiquity existed or exist, but whether the creating "Elohim" of Genesis:1 and the creating "Yahweh elohim" of Genesis:2 [whom you refer to as the Jehovah in Exodus] existed.

Perhaps you meant to ask a rhetorical question, but it does not provide a reasonable answer to my question. (You, obviously an atheist, assume that they do not exist. As an atheologian, I do not make such an assumption.)

Toto

No, unless you have some off beat unscientific definition of "true."

The gods were not real. They were part of an attempt by a prescientific people to make sense of the world.

Is there any other reasonable answer?

As for calling yourself an atheologist, I think the word is taken (see atheologican blog.

Amedeo

The term "atheologian" may NOT be appropriated (copyrighted) by anybody. Two years ago, it was used on the IIDB; I had used it myself {just as one uses "atheist" or "logician"} on other Forums, and I have seen it used elsewhere.

I suppose that its being used as the title of a blog or of a magazine [just as one might use "The Engineer" or "The Christian"] was not meant to appropriate it. Should they charge me of infringement of copyright, I have evidence of the prior use of the term.
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That Blog even lists 3 Atheology Blogs (by different names) --
the term "atheology" is being used generically, as I suspected.

Amedeo

Cf., # 4:


By "true" I mean what is generally meat. So, "Are the Biblical creation stories true?" = "Did what is claimed in the Biblical creation stories really occur?"

Your NO answer is not sufficient, since lack of empirical knowledge in the matter does not imply that those events did not occur, and since you have not shown the IMPOSSIBILITY of those events. Furthermore, the No answer is ambiguous in view of the fact that there are Bible believers; that is, people who who believe that what the Bible expounds is TRUE, even though the exposition is figurative (non-literal). In fact we know of Philo's interpretation trick: When he found the errors and improbabilities of the Bible, he did not conclude that the Bible is a mythological book: he thought that the Bible is truthful, but the truths are expressed in allegories, metaphors, and fables. All people who have the Judaic religion believe in the "God of our fathers" while 'demythologizing' the Bible; they are not atheists. They believe in the Biblical God that created the world, as the prophets declared, while disregarding the fact that the prophets spoke of diverse gods (the Elohim and Yahweh).

So, self-deceptions aside, I ask the question again: Is the Biblical Creator(s) of the world (in or out of an allegorical dress) a truth or a myth?

The question is NOT equivalent to: Do you BELIEVE that the Biblical Creator of the world did in fact create the world? I know that there are millions of believers in the Bible.
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The existence and the nature of the Galilean Jesus is being contested to no end on this Board. Why is it that hardly anybody contests the Judaean God? Is this God one of the uncontestable dogmas?
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Philotheos the Athelogian

Toto

If the creation story is allegorical, you can call it "true" but it is not literally true.

The is a forum on this board for the discussion of the existence of god(s). Most people in this forum are here to discuss other issues.

There is also a forum that discusses evolution vs. creationism, where you can find a lot of evidence that the Biblical creation story is not consistent with what we know from geology, paleontology, etc.

So let me know where you want this thread moved.

Amedeo

I did not say IT IS allegorical; Philo and other do... in order to eat the cake and have it, too.

You may place it ELSEWHERE, since nobody is sufficiently prepared to put the Bible in the list of mythological works or "historical novels", or , for that matter, to formulate the Unified Theory of Gravity and Electro-Magnetism.