Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 02-11-2013, 08:56 AM

We find one reference in 2 Timothy 3 to two enemies of Moses named Jannes and Jambres. However, we must note the fact that the author of the verse ASSUMES his readers already knows WHO these people were, and requires no explanation.

In rabbinic sources these two individuals are very well-known. The Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus says that Yannos and Yambros were two sons of Bilaam, who at first was a sorcerer advisor to Pharoah. They are mentioned in the Zohar as well, and in the Targum Jonathan (("Yannis and Yambris") on Exodus 7 which discusses the plagues and the ability of the magicians to reproduce some of them, the heads of the sorcerers were these two men in verse 11, though they are not named in the verse itself.

We are also told that they joined the Mixed Multitude who joined the Israelites in departing Egypt, (Midrash Tanhuma), AND accompanied their father Bilaam to Balak with the donkey (Targum Jonathan Numbers 22:22).

So back to 3 Timothy. The author himself knew that these two individuals were considered very important in confronting Moses in Jewish traditions, and assumed his readers were also familiar with not only their names but the extent of their negative role in relation to Moses and the Israelites.
Who would throw in these names to gentile Greeks in an alleged letter to make a point about proper behavior and the dangers of false gospel teachers?!

Juststeve · 02-11-2013, 09:31 AM

Are you suggesting that either the Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus or the Zohar predate 2 Timothy? That I think would be contrary to the most common view.

Steve

Duvduv · 02-11-2013, 10:50 AM

The brief mention as I described from Timothy in relation to Moses had to have come from somewhere, and since both the writer and recipients knew what the reference was, then the information must have been in Jewish tradition before Timothy was written. It would have been known to Jews. Of course with Timothy as a composite text including a Jewish text, this is not difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Are you suggesting that either the Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus or the Zohar predate 2 Timothy? That I think would be contrary to the most common view.

Steve

Toto · 02-11-2013, 11:25 AM

There seems to be a lot of commentary that these two were Egyptian magicians who tried to counter Moses' miracle with turning his staff into a snake.

2 Tim 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses,^(L) so also these teachers oppose^(M) the truth.

Footnotes L and M go to:

L. 2 Timothy 3:8 : Ex 7:11
M. 2 Timothy 3:8 : Ac 13:8

But Ex 7:11 says only "Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers,(A) and the Egyptian magicians(B) also did the same things by their secret arts: (C)"

B references back to 2 Tim.

From Barnes commentary

Quote:

Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses - The names of these two men are not elsewhere mentioned in the Bible. They are supposed to have been two of the magicians who resisted Moses (Exodus 7:11, et al.), and who opposed their miracles to those of Moses and Aaron. It is not certain where the apostle obtained their names; but they are frequently mentioned by the Hebrew writers, and also by other writers; so that there can be no reasonable doubt that their names were correctly handed down by tradition. Nothing is more probable than that the names of the more distinguished magicians who attempted to imitate the miracles of Moses, would be preserved by tradition; and though they are not mentioned by Moses himself, and the Jews have told many ridiculous stories respecting them, yet this should not lead us to doubt the truth of the tradition respecting their names. A full collection of the Jewish statements in regard to them may be found in Wetstein, in loc.

They are also mentioned by Pliny, Nat. Hist. 30:7; and by Numenius, the philosopher, as quoted by Eusebius, 9:8, and Origen, against Celsus, p. 199. See Wetstein. By the rabbinical writers, they are sometimes mentioned as Egyptian magicians who opposed Moses in Egypt, and sometimes as the sons of Balaam. The more common account is, that they were the princes of the Egyptian magicians. One of the Jewish rabbins represents them as having been convinced by the miracles of Moses, and as having become converts to the Hebrew religion. There is no reason to doubt that these were in fact the leading men who opposed Moses in Egypt, by attempting to work counter-miracles. The point of the remark of the apostle here, is, that they resisted Moses by attempting to imitate his miracles, thus neutralizing the evidence that he was sent from God.

Wetsein

JoeWallack · 02-11-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

and since both the writer and recipients knew what the reference was, then the information must have been in Jewish tradition before Timothy was written.

JW:
The "must" here is a false statement. Is making a false statement against the rules here or not?

Joseph

Toto · 02-11-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

and since both the writer and recipients knew what the reference was, then the information must have been in Jewish tradition before Timothy was written.

JW:
The "must" here is a false statement. Is making a false statement against the rules here or not?

Please detail why you think this is "false." Are the premises wrong? The conclusion?

It is not against the rules to make a statement that is wrong - part of the purpose of the forum is to correct inaccurate statements. It only really becomes a problem when someone persistent repeats statements shown to be false.

semiopen · 02-11-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find one reference in 2 Timothy 3 to two enemies of Moses named Jannes and Jambres. However, we must note the fact that the author of the verse ASSUMES his readers already knows WHO these people were, and requires no explanation.

In rabbinic sources these two individuals are very well-known. The Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus says that Yannos and Yambros were two sons of Bilaam, who at first was a sorcerer advisor to Pharoah. They are mentioned in the Zohar as well, and in the Targum Jonathan (("Yannis and Yambris") on Exodus 7 which discusses the plagues and the ability of the magicians to reproduce some of them, the heads of the sorcerers were these two men in verse 11, though they are not named in the verse itself.

We are also told that they joined the Mixed Multitude who joined the Israelites in departing Egypt, (Midrash Tanhuma), AND accompanied their father Bilaam to Balak with the donkey (Targum Jonathan Numbers 22:22).

So back to 3 Timothy. The author himself knew that these two individuals were considered very important in confronting Moses in Jewish traditions, and assumed his readers were also familiar with not only their names but the extent of their negative role in relation to Moses and the Israelites.
Who would throw in these names to gentile Greeks in an alleged letter to make a point about proper behavior and the dangers of false gospel teachers?!

The Targum Jonathon didn't contain a commentary on Exodus.

I think you might be thinking of the

Targum_Pseudo-Jonathan

Quote:

As to the date of its composition, this is a matter of dispute. The majority opinion, on the basis of much internal evidence, is that it cannot date from before the Arab conquest of the Middle East despite incorporating some older material.

Yalkut_Shimoni

Quote:

The sources embrace not only the major portion of halakic and haggadic literature during the ancient and geonic epochs, but also the haggadic literature as late as the 12th century.

You probably are much more familiar with this material than me, but is it possible that you are confusing Rabbinic with Talmudic?

semiopen · 02-11-2013, 12:43 PM

JANNES AND JAMBRES (more correctly Mambres, ; also , Yoḥanai and Mamre)

Quote:

These legends seem to have been known also to such pagan writers as Pliny and Apuleius; Pliny ("Historia Naturalis," xxxi. 11) mentions Moses, Jannes, and Jotape (Rotape?) among the Jewish magicians, and Apuleius ("Apologia," xc.) mentions Moses and Jannes among the world's great magicians.

So far as I know this doesn't appear in the Talmud.

There is mention of it appearing twice in the DSS but I'm not sure.

The Targum Jonathon thing is just wrong I think.

One Bible Commentary on 2 Timothy 3: 8

Quote:

Jannes and Jambres names are only given in the Old Testament Targum Jonathan Exodus 7:11-8:19. Their names are not given in other versions of the Old Testament or in Josephus. The name Jannes is mentioned twice in the Dead Sea Scrolls according to the electronic version of the Comprehensive New Testament.

This verbiage appears frequently on the web

Old Testament Targum Jonathan Exodus 7:11-8:19

A guy mentioned this Targum at Shul (also in conjunction with Exodus) and not being an expert I just said it sounded dubious. Let's ask the Rabbi he suggested. The Rabbi thinks the Tower of Babel was real I replied.

Maybe its in the DSS, I'm assuming it is in Pliny in any case.

Duvduv · 02-11-2013, 12:57 PM

The names are mentioned more than once in the Targum Yonatan and Yalkut Shimoni. And I remember that they are mentioned in the tractate Sanhedrin, but I have to check where.

In any case, the important point is the relationship between what is found in Timothy and the Jewish sources, either orally or in their written form (if in fact the epistle was written AFTER the Talmudic writings...).
I would also want to assume that the writers such as Eusebius etc. knew of the Jewish traditions as well (and of course Jannis and Jambros were not nearly as famous as one Yeshu son of Pandera).

And again, I ask to pay attention to the CONTEXT where the author of Timothy is assuming that he and his readers know the story of the two magicians in the context of events related to Moses, which the average gentile would not know or care about in terms of understanding the idea that "Paul" is equivalent to Moses and his opponents are equivalent to Jannis and Jambros.

semiopen · 02-11-2013, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The names are mentioned more than once in the Targum Yonatan and Yalkut Shimoni. And I remember that they are mentioned in the tractate Sanhedrin, but I have to check where.

In any case, the important point is the relationship between what is found in Timothy and the Jewish sources, either orally or in their written form (if in fact the epistle was written AFTER the Talmudic writings...).

And again, I ask to pay attention to the CONTEXT where the author is assuming that he and his readers know the story of the two magicians in the context of events related to Moses, which the average gentile would not know or care about in terms of understanding the idea that "Paul" is equivalent to Moses and his opponents are equivalent to Jannis and Jambros.

Taken Scene Good Luck

Targum_Jonathan only contains the prophets. This is mentioned in the Talmud.

Targum to the Prophets:

Quote:

Targum Jonathan.
1. The Official Targum to the Prophets: Like the Targum Onḳelos to the Pentateuch the Targum to the Books of the Prophets gained general recognition in Babylonia in the third century; and from the Babylonian academies it was carried throughout the Diaspora...

If you are looking at exodus commentary in Jonathon, you are looking at psuedo-Jonathon.

The link I posted above

JANNES AND JAMBRES (more correctly Mambres, ; also , Yoḥanai and Mamre):

discusses the magician tradition in the Talmud, but doesn't mention where it states the actual names. This is because the names aren't there otherwise a person as knowledgeable as yourself would have mentioned this in the OP.

Quote:

According to rabbinical tradition they were the two chiefs of the magicians at the court of Pharaoh who foretold the birth of Moses, "the destroyer of the land of Egypt," thereby causing the cruel edicts of Pharaoh (Soṭah 11a; Sanh. 106a).

Sanhedrin 106

It mentions some guy named Pharoah in a footnote.

I'd love to concentrate on the important stuff but unfortunately this stuff is all that I halfway understand. Most likely the author of Timothy read Pliny or something that used him as a source.

02-11-2013, 08:56 AM	#1
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Jannes and Jambros in Midrash and 2 Timothy We find one reference in 2 Timothy 3 to two enemies of Moses named Jannes and Jambres. However, we must note the fact that the author of the verse ASSUMES his readers already knows WHO these people were, and requires no explanation. In rabbinic sources these two individuals are very well-known. The Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus says that Yannos and Yambros were two sons of Bilaam, who at first was a sorcerer advisor to Pharoah. They are mentioned in the Zohar as well, and in the Targum Jonathan (("Yannis and Yambris") on Exodus 7 which discusses the plagues and the ability of the magicians to reproduce some of them, the heads of the sorcerers were these two men in verse 11, though they are not named in the verse itself. We are also told that they joined the Mixed Multitude who joined the Israelites in departing Egypt, (Midrash Tanhuma), AND accompanied their father Bilaam to Balak with the donkey (Targum Jonathan Numbers 22:22). So back to 3 Timothy. The author himself knew that these two individuals were considered very important in confronting Moses in Jewish traditions, and assumed his readers were also familiar with not only their names but the extent of their negative role in relation to Moses and the Israelites. Who would throw in these names to gentile Greeks in an alleged letter to make a point about proper behavior and the dangers of false gospel teachers?!

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02-11-2013, 09:31 AM	#2
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Are you suggesting that either the Yalkut Shimoni on Exodus or the Zohar predate 2 Timothy? That I think would be contrary to the most common view. Steve

02-11-2013, 12:57 PM	#9
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The names are mentioned more than once in the Targum Yonatan and Yalkut Shimoni. And I remember that they are mentioned in the tractate Sanhedrin, but I have to check where. In any case, the important point is the relationship between what is found in Timothy and the Jewish sources, either orally or in their written form (if in fact the epistle was written AFTER the Talmudic writings...). I would also want to assume that the writers such as Eusebius etc. knew of the Jewish traditions as well (and of course Jannis and Jambros were not nearly as famous as one Yeshu son of Pandera). And again, I ask to pay attention to the CONTEXT where the author of Timothy is assuming that he and his readers know the story of the two magicians in the context of events related to Moses, which the average gentile would not know or care about in terms of understanding the idea that "Paul" is equivalent to Moses and his opponents are equivalent to Jannis and Jambros.

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