Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 12-13-2009, 05:03 AM

I did look at the idea of the holon. That's why I asked you to please stay on topic. If you want to comment on anything I've written in the OP, that's fine. But non-specific references to holons (your link needs a closing bracket, btw), as well as gnosticism, hermeneutics, astrology, oriental cults and sun gods do not add anything I'm afraid.

Can I ask a moderator to break out any of Clivedurdle's comments that aren't related to the thread topic, please?

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

I'm an amateur, with no training in this field and no knowledge of the ancient languages. I do have a great interest in the metaphysics of early Christians and pagans. From what I've read, I am confident that Doherty's theory is not supported by the literature of the time, and in fact contradicts what we know of how people thank back then.

I am not off topic. My point is that there is more than enough evidence of other ways to interpret what is going on, and in fact the way you are recommending to cut up this cake leads to serious errors.

If Doherty contradicts what we know of how people "thank" back then, it is because a similar mistake is being made as the New York Library did about Newton!

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 09:23 AM

I actually asked for people to look at the concept of the Holon and Gleick.

Chaos The Making of a New Science by James-Gleick (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Which is why I referred to a certain machine favoured by Carrier.

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 09:34 AM

Earth Air Fire and water are the principles of astrology. philosophers stones, sub lunar realms, gods and demons are all part of this way of understanding the world.

We have a group of documents that continually refer to these ideas, but modern apologists somehow pretend they are not there - I am the Alpha and Omega for example.

We have someone comes along and looks more closely at the writings of Paul from this perspective and what do we find? Katie all over the place!

And then the argument becomes a strange one well that is not how sub lunar worked, as if there was an agreed definition somewhere!

And we have Lucian explicitly calling xianity an oriental cult and still the astrological roots are brushed under the carpet in favour of a ridiculous Jesusdidit explanation. As if this Jesus if it existed were an early twentieth century rationalist!

Clivedurdle · 12-13-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

The Birth of Hercules

Hercules was one of the sons produced by Zeus in his many love affairs. Hercules became immortal when Zeus put the infant at the breast of his divine spouse Hera as she slept. It was a sneaky deal. Having suckled the divine milk of the goddess, Hercules became immortal, but ever after he was dogged by the enmity of the goddess, who was irate at the infidelity of her husband Zeus.

http://domeofthesky.com/clicks/her.html

Quote:

The fifth of the Twelve Labours set to Heracles (or Hercules) was to clean the Augean stables in a single day. This assignment was intended to be both humiliating (rather than impressive, as had the previous labours) and impossible, since the livestock were divinely healthy (immortal) and therefore produced an enormous quantity of dung. However, Heracles succeeded by rerouting the rivers Alpheus and Peneus to wash out the filth.

Was Heracles in the sublunar realm when he was born, when he cleared out the stables?

I really do not understand this basic assumption that Paul is talking about a real human when Paul looks Greek !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augeas

Toto · 12-13-2009, 10:06 AM

I think I understand Clive's point, but the presentation is overwhelming this thread.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-13-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Can I ask a moderator to break out any of Clivedurdle's comments that aren't related to the thread topic, please?

FWIW, I second the motion.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 12-18-2009, 04:09 AM

Back to the on topic discussion of fleshy sub lunar wotsits!

When Hercules gave Atlas a rest from upholding the earth, where was Hercules standing? Above or below the firmament, in the earthly realm, in the sublunar realm?

This is a serious question and I expect to be referenced to academic discussions.

Clivedurdle · 12-18-2009, 04:15 AM

http://www.steliart.com/hercules_app...hesperides.htm

in this version Atlas holds up the heavens whilst standing on the earth. Is this not clear evidence that there weren't barriers between the realms?

Quote:

Atlas was a Titan, which is to say a member of the first generation of gods, born of Earth. One of his brothers was Cronus, father of Zeus.

Atlas made the mistake of siding with Cronus in a war against Zeus. In punishment, he was compelled to support the weight of the heavens by means of a pillar on his shoulders. Hercules, in quest of the apples, had been told that he would never get them without the aid of Atlas.

Clivedurdle · 12-18-2009, 04:20 AM

Was Atlas or the Titans said to be kata sarka?

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12-13-2009, 05:03 AM	#11
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	I did look at the idea of the holon. That's why I asked you to please stay on topic. If you want to comment on anything I've written in the OP, that's fine. But non-specific references to holons (your link needs a closing bracket, btw), as well as gnosticism, hermeneutics, astrology, oriental cults and sun gods do not add anything I'm afraid. Can I ask a moderator to break out any of Clivedurdle's comments that aren't related to the thread topic, please?

12-13-2009, 09:23 AM	#13
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I actually asked for people to look at the concept of the Holon and Gleick. Chaos The Making of a New Science by James-Gleick (or via: amazon.co.uk) Which is why I referred to a certain machine favoured by Carrier.

12-13-2009, 09:34 AM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Earth Air Fire and water are the principles of astrology. philosophers stones, sub lunar realms, gods and demons are all part of this way of understanding the world. We have a group of documents that continually refer to these ideas, but modern apologists somehow pretend they are not there - I am the Alpha and Omega for example. We have someone comes along and looks more closely at the writings of Paul from this perspective and what do we find? Katie all over the place! And then the argument becomes a strange one well that is not how sub lunar worked, as if there was an agreed definition somewhere! And we have Lucian explicitly calling xianity an oriental cult and still the astrological roots are brushed under the carpet in favour of a ridiculous Jesusdidit explanation. As if this Jesus if it existed were an early twentieth century rationalist!

12-13-2009, 10:06 AM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think I understand Clive's point, but the presentation is overwhelming this thread.

12-18-2009, 04:09 AM	#18
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Back to the on topic discussion of fleshy sub lunar wotsits! When Hercules gave Atlas a rest from upholding the earth, where was Hercules standing? Above or below the firmament, in the earthly realm, in the sublunar realm? This is a serious question and I expect to be referenced to academic discussions.

12-18-2009, 04:20 AM	#20
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Was Atlas or the Titans said to be kata sarka?

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