James Brown

Yes, Carrier's quote about Paul's deception is in his "Why I don't Buy the Resurrection Story":

I once quoted this paragraph on another apologetics board and man, did they ever jump down my throat. You would have thought I accused Paul of child molestation.

paarsurrey

Hi

Regarding the second point I mentioned in the OP :

Quote:

Paul is said to have stated that speaking falsehood and fabrications to support Christianity is allowed and appreciable. I want to have its reference

I have now gathered from a post (on another topic) in a discussion forum, of following two quotes but the poster does not know the reference.

Quote:

It is an act of virtue to deceive and lie, when by such means the interest of the church might be promoted. Bishop Eusebius (c 263 – 339).

Quote:

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us. Pope Leo X (11 December 1475 – 1 December 1521) was Pope from 1513 to his death.

I would like a reference for the quotes, if somebody could provide.

Thanks

Iasion

Hiya,

Beware of this "quote".

Leo X did not say it.
It's from a later play by John Bale.

But you will find it endlessly repeated on the web and in various poorly researched books.


Iasion

andrewcriddle

There is an analysis of both claims (mainly the Eusebois one) at
http://www.americanvision.org/articl...e/06-29-06.asp

Basically a claim by a historian that Eusebius believed lying was good when in the interests of the church was misinterpreted as a claim that Eusebius had actually said this.


Andrew Criddle

Toto

You can't get Eusebius off the hook that easily. There is an old thread Eusebius the Liar? referencing an archived thread here, which go into more detail than most people want to read. Note in particular this post from Richard Carrier and the following posts. Note that "Alexis Comnenus" is Bede's sockpuppet.

mountainman

"How far it may be proper
to use falsehood as a medium
for the benefit of those
who require to be deceived;"

--- Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea, (circa 324)
PE: Praeparatio Evangelica, Preparation for the Gospel,
The title of Chapter 31 of Book 12



[note: In the following quotation, which is the text of the above headed chapter, Eusebius is quoting Plato, and the response to Plato. The text in italics represents the writings of Eusebius]

PLATO
‘BUT even if the case were not such as our
argument has now proved it to be,
if a lawgiver, who is to be of ever so little use,
could have ventured to tell any falsehood at all to the young for their good,
is there any falsehood that he could have told more beneficial than this,
and better able to make them all do everything that is just,
not by compulsion but willingly?

‘Truth, O Stranger, is a noble and an enduring thing;
it seems, however, not easy to persuade men of it.’

[Eusebius]
Now you may find in the Hebrew Scriptures
also thousands of such passages concerning God
as though He were jealous, or sleeping, or angry,
or subject to any other human passions,
which passages are adopted for the benefit
of those who need this mode of instruction.


--- Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea,
PE: Praeparatio Evangelica, Preparation for the Gospel
Text of Chapter 31, Book 12
(See Heading of Chapter above)


Eusebian Integrity

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Gamera

Phillipians can also be distorted to portray Paul as condoning lies, or at least insincerity but it is clearly not his intent.

Phil 1:15 -- 15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel; 17 the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice. 19

mountainman

How can there be any gauge of either sincerity and/or of the clarity of intent with respect to a totally unknown author, about whom we know next to absolute nothing, and who was once known to have clearly intended to have written 14 letters, the bulk of which today are recognised as blatantly stupid and faultlessly inept forgeries?

The emotional baggage is still driving the train.
Isn't it about time we disconnected the baggage?
It is not doing anyone any good at all.




Best wishes,



Pete Brown

andrewcriddle

I've only read the section after Richard Carrier's interesting post, and I'll only respond on whether Eusebius said that lying was sometimes good. (IE the controversial question as to whether or not Eusebius faked evidence is rather another issue.). On a hostile reading Eusebius in the Praeparatio is saying that it is appropriate for God to mislead us for our own Good.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu..._12_book12.htm Whatever one thinks about this idea it is IMO rather different from the implications of the supposed quote.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

I'm not sure how you get the idea that Eusebius thinks that God is misleading anyone. I would read that as the human authors of the Hebrew Scriptures writing either allegory or fairy tales for those who need a literal picture.