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the Radio Star · 09-18-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Fifty years after the Babylonian exile, by 538 BC, the Persians under Cyrus overran the Babylonian Empire and the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem. The exiles returned in several waves. From about 521 to 485 BC, the time of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, the second Temple was built. Around 450 BC (the dates are uncertain, perhaps as early as 460 BC, perhaps as late as 398 BC), Ezra the scribe and Nehemiah the governor re-established centralized Judaism in Jerusalem. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah tell the story of that era of regeneration and rebirth. "Miraculous" is not too strong a word--no other people, in all of history, has been re-established and reborn after conquest and exile.

I read that in Part II of "Who Wrote the Bible?" at Straight Dope. Is it true? Have Christians used it as an apologetic device?

Goathead · 09-18-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Radio Star

Quote:

Fifty years after the Babylonian exile, by 538 BC, the Persians under Cyrus overran the Babylonian Empire and the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem. The exiles returned in several waves. From about 521 to 485 BC, the time of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, the second Temple was built. Around 450 BC (the dates are uncertain, perhaps as early as 460 BC, perhaps as late as 398 BC), Ezra the scribe and Nehemiah the governor re-established centralized Judaism in Jerusalem. The books of Ezra and Nehemiah tell the story of that era of regeneration and rebirth. "Miraculous" is not too strong a word--no other people, in all of history, has been re-established and reborn after conquest and exile.

I read that in Part II of "Who Wrote the Bible?" at Straight Dope. Is it true? Have Christians used it as an apologetic device?

No, the Britons managed quite well after the roman withdrawal.

The big problem, though is that no case will be accepted, besides which, id ask which form of judaism is so beloved by God in particular - hte old way or th reformers?

the Radio Star · 09-18-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goathead

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Radio Star

I read that in Part II of "Who Wrote the Bible?" at Straight Dope. Is it true? Have Christians used it as an apologetic device?

No, the Britons managed quite well after the roman withdrawal.

The big problem, though is that no case will be accepted, besides which, id ask which form of judaism is so beloved by God in particular - hte old way or th reformers?

Obviously many peoples have thrived after conquest (think Germany and Japan after WWII), but what about conquest and exile? Were the Britons exiled?

Sauron · 09-18-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Radio Star

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goathead

No, the Britons managed quite well after the roman withdrawal.

The big problem, though is that no case will be accepted, besides which, id ask which form of judaism is so beloved by God in particular - hte old way or th reformers?

Obviously many peoples have thrived after conquest (think Germany and Japan after WWII), but what about conquest and exile? Were the Britons exiled?

Three points:

1. Other countries have seen massive outflows of their people - Ireland, Armenia, etc. - only to see them return to their homeland, when conditions got better.

2. The majority of Jews in the world still do not live within the borders of Israel.

3. "Exile" means the forcible removal (or denial of entry) into a country. The jews were not exiled after the destruction of the second temple - they chose to leave, because of the roman oppression and the loss of a national symbol. For an actual exile, see the Trail of Tears.

All in all, this strikes me as one of those amazingly convenient arguments that christians (and zionist jews) try to have both ways. On the one hand, they want to claim that there has been a continuous jewish presence in Palestine. They do this, in order to buttress the zionist claim that they have a right to expropriate the land the arabs are living on in the region. But on the other hand, they want to claim that the jews were exiled, in order to show the miraculous rebirth of Israel.

Well, which was it - (a) a continuous presence, or (b) a people exiled from their homeland? The answer depends upon which bit of religioius nonsense the christians and/or zionist jews are trying to peddle to their audiences.

the Radio Star · 09-18-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Radio Star

Obviously many peoples have thrived after conquest (think Germany and Japan after WWII), but what about conquest and exile? Were the Britons exiled?

Three points:

1. Other countries have seen massive outflows of their people - Ireland, Armenia, etc. - only to see them return to their homeland, when conditions got better.

2. The majority of Jews in the world still do not live within the borders of Israel.

3. "Exile" means the forcible removal (or denial of entry) into a country. The jews were not exiled after the destruction of the second temple - they chose to leave, because of the roman oppression and the loss of a national symbol. For an actual exile, see the Trail of Tears.

All in all, this strikes me as one of those amazingly convenient arguments that christians (and zionist jews) try to have both ways. On the one hand, they want to claim that there has been a continuous jewish presence in Palestine. They do this, in order to buttress the zionist claim that they have a right to expropriate the land the arabs are living on in the region. But on the other hand, they want to claim that the jews were exiled, in order to show the miraculous rebirth of Israel.

Well, which was it - (a) a continuous presence, or (b) a people exiled from their homeland? The answer depends upon which bit of religioius nonsense the christians and/or zionist jews are trying to peddle to their audiences.

I am not interested in an Israeli-Palestinian debate. At all. Please, let's talk about ancient Israel.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-18-2007, 06:16 PM

If God has always protected Jews, I wonder what would have happened to them if God had not protected them. The Philistines, the Egyptians, Nebuchadnezzar, and Trajan, among others, demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. In the first part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to quell a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. I suppose that if God had not been protected the Jews, Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 or more Jews. Is it appropriate to say "With friends like God, who needs enemies?"

Minimalist · 09-18-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

the Persians under Cyrus overran the Babylonian Empire and the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem.

Wouldn't that make Cyrus the Messiah? He did after all free them from captivity AND allow rebuilding of the temple. That's a hell of a lot closer than this jesus character ever got to fulfilling the Jewish prophecies.

Sauron · 09-18-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Radio Star

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Three points:

1. Other countries have seen massive outflows of their people - Ireland, Armenia, etc. - only to see them return to their homeland, when conditions got better.

2. The majority of Jews in the world still do not live within the borders of Israel.

3. "Exile" means the forcible removal (or denial of entry) into a country. The jews were not exiled after the destruction of the second temple - they chose to leave, because of the roman oppression and the loss of a national symbol. For an actual exile, see the Trail of Tears.

All in all, this strikes me as one of those amazingly convenient arguments that christians (and zionist jews) try to have both ways. On the one hand, they want to claim that there has been a continuous jewish presence in Palestine. They do this, in order to buttress the zionist claim that they have a right to expropriate the land the arabs are living on in the region. But on the other hand, they want to claim that the jews were exiled, in order to show the miraculous rebirth of Israel.

Well, which was it - (a) a continuous presence, or (b) a people exiled from their homeland? The answer depends upon which bit of religioius nonsense the christians and/or zionist jews are trying to peddle to their audiences.

I am not interested in an Israeli-Palestinian debate. At all. Please, let's talk about ancient Israel.

I just did. See points 1, 2 and 3, above.

Sauron · 09-18-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

the Persians under Cyrus overran the Babylonian Empire and the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem.

Wouldn't that make Cyrus the Messiah? He did after all free them from captivity AND allow rebuilding of the temple. That's a hell of a lot closer than this jesus character ever got to fulfilling the Jewish prophecies.

The "Jews in Babylon" were not the entire country anyhow - only the elite and ruling class were taken as hostages back to Babylon. The majority of the Jews stayed in Palestine during the period of the Babylonian exile.

Minimalist · 09-18-2007, 11:05 PM

Yes, and Philip R. Davies, has an interesting view on the appearance of the OT in just that era. The book is called In Search of Ancient Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk).

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09-18-2007, 06:16 PM	#6
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	If God has always protected Jews, I wonder what would have happened to them if God had not protected them. The Philistines, the Egyptians, Nebuchadnezzar, and Trajan, among others, demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. In the first part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to quell a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. I suppose that if God had not been protected the Jews, Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 or more Jews. Is it appropriate to say "With friends like God, who needs enemies?"

09-18-2007, 11:05 PM	#10
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Yes, and Philip R. Davies, has an interesting view on the appearance of the OT in just that era. The book is called In Search of Ancient Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk).

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