Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-14-2008, 02:42 PM

From the upcoming SBL 2008 session on Archeology in the Ancient World

Roger Bagnall, Columbia University
New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

Quote:

New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

In the winter of 2003, excavations by the local Turkish authorities in the basement level of the basilica in the agora of Smyrna, modern Izmir, brought to light a large number of graffiti, both written in charcoal or ink and scratched on the two or more plaster layers over the stone wall. These appear archaeologically to date from the period between the late first and third quarter of the second century CE; the basement appears not to have been used after the earthquake of 178. One of the graffiti, on the uppermost plaster layer, has a date equivalent to 125/6 CE. The graffiti cover a wide range of subjects, including sports, sex, and politics; there are many drawings, including particularly of ships. Among those of interest for the study of religion are several referring to the healing of eyes, including references to what may be an otherwise unknown local divinity; a number of uses of isopsephism; and at least one clearly Christian graffito, using isopsephism, that would archaeologically seem to belong to the period before 125/6 CE. A couple of other graffiti offer less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity.

Isopsephism "the numerical equality between words or lines of verse according to the ancient Greek notation, in which each letter receives a corresponding number."

mountainman · 11-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the upcoming SBL 2008 session on Archeology in the Ancient World

Roger Bagnall, Columbia University
New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

Quote:

New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

..[trimmed]...

and at least one clearly Christian graffito, using isopsephism, that would archaeologically seem to belong to the period before 125/6 CE. A couple of other graffiti offer less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity.

Isopsephism "the numerical equality between words or lines of verse according to the ancient Greek notation, in which each letter receives a corresponding number."

Dear Toto,

The images will prove interesting. I think the give away line in all the above is the term "less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity". Is this another Dura Europos in the making? We await some evidence.

Best wishes,

Pete

Iskander · 11-14-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the upcoming SBL 2008 session on Archeology in the Ancient World

Roger Bagnall, Columbia University
New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

Quote:

New Graffiti from Smyrna and the Context of Early Christianity

In the winter of 2003, excavations by the local Turkish authorities in the basement level of the basilica in the agora of Smyrna, modern Izmir, brought to light a large number of graffiti, both written in charcoal or ink and scratched on the two or more plaster layers over the stone wall. These appear archaeologically to date from the period between the late first and third quarter of the second century CE; the basement appears not to have been used after the earthquake of 178. One of the graffiti, on the uppermost plaster layer, has a date equivalent to 125/6 CE. The graffiti cover a wide range of subjects, including sports, sex, and politics; there are many drawings, including particularly of ships. Among those of interest for the study of religion are several referring to the healing of eyes, including references to what may be an otherwise unknown local divinity; a number of uses of isopsephism; and at least one clearly Christian graffito, using isopsephism, that would archaeologically seem to belong to the period before 125/6 CE. A couple of other graffiti offer less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity.

Isopsephism "the numerical equality between words or lines of verse according to the ancient Greek notation, in which each letter receives a corresponding number."

Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

Amaleq13 · 11-14-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I think the give away line in all the above is the term "less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity".

That does not appear to apply to "one clearly Christian graffito", though. It refers to other graffiti.

mountainman · 11-14-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I think the give away line in all the above is the term "less secure but tantalizing possible connections to Christianity".

That does not appear to apply to "one clearly Christian graffito", though. It refers to other graffiti.

Dear Amaleq13,

I agree that it tells us nothing about how securely this "one clearly Christian graffito" is conjectured to be "clearly christian". The image(s) are the key to this discussion. Hopefully we may find one.

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 11-14-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...
Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

It's a game. mountainman claims that there is no archeological evidence that Christianity existed before the third century.

The game is to see how he gets around the evidence that is presented to him.

Iskander · 11-14-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...
Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

It's a game. mountainman claims that there is no archeological evidence that Christianity existed before the third century.

The game is to see how he gets around the evidence that is presented to him.

Ah! Thanks

spin · 11-14-2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

The analogy isn't functional.

If the epigraph proves true then it provides a earliest tangible piece of evidence for christianity. It doesn't matter how many opinions float around as to when a text was written or when events narrated in a text might have happened, when compared to having an artefact in a datable stratum.

"Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?"

It pushes the latest date for signs of christianity back into the second century. We have a dude here who has a theory that Eusebius invented christianity for Constantine and has constructed his theory so that he will only consider hard-datable evidence, ie no literary evidence, because it all could have been produced fraudulently (I kid you not).

(He's not adverse to incoherent analyses of texts when it suits him though.)

Archaeological evidence for early 2nd c. christianity is useful.

spin

spin · 11-14-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...
Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

It's a game. mountainman claims that there is no archeological evidence that Christianity existed before the third century.

Umm, fourth century!

spin

Iskander · 11-14-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to exhibit human beings.

The analogy isn't functional.

If the epigraph proves true then it provides a earliest tangible piece of evidence for christianity. It doesn't matter how many opinions float around as to when a text was written or when events narrated in a text might have happened, when compared to having an artefact in a datable stratum.

"Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?"

It pushes the latest date for signs of christianity back into the second century. We have a dude here who has a theory that Eusebius invented christianity for Constantine and has constructed his theory so that he will only consider hard-datable evidence, ie no literary evidence, because it all could have been produced fraudulently (I kid you not).

(He's not adverse to incoherent analyses of texts when it suits him though.)

Archaeological evidence for early 2nd c. christianity is useful.

spin

Yes, I knew that. Thanks

Why bother to look for evidence of Christianity in the second century?

It is like someone looking for Egyptians mummies to prove that humans exist.

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