Jagella

I'm surprised to learn that many of the members here seem to believe that the common view of hell--as a place where souls of the damned are eternally tormented--cannot be found in the New Testament. I've posted Bible passages on the other thread in which the references to hell are made, and these passages have been explained away as "mistranslations." I was wondering how widespread this view that hell is merely an annihilation is. Up until I started discussing Jesus’ threats of hell on the other thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...0&page=1&pp=25 ), I was unaware that many people held this view. About the only people I knew that denied the eternal nature of the hell dogma were Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I never cease to be amazed at what people come up with in these forums!

Jagella

Godless Wonder

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

edit: after viewing the other thread, wondering why this thread is needed.

Diogenes the Cynic

The annihilation is permanent, not temporary.

I can't see what is going to be discussed in this thread that's not already being discussed in the other thread.

Sensei Meela

It ain't. Well, perhaps Revelation; but it was the Gospel's that was in question, originally. The idea was that 'hell' was everlasting punishment, not torment. Specifically, the 1st C Jew (umm, disreagrding that there was no monolithic 'Jewish' entity and any number of differing beliefs among the disparate groups of Jews) [likely] held the to the notion that the dead either stay dead in Gehenna (a disgraceful final resting place, of sorts) or awake to live in God's new kingdom.

[Daniel 12:2 makes an interesting passage, though]
...and (later) interpretation. Kinda important to note.

Among who? 1st C Jews (and prior)? 1st C Christians? Modern day atheists? Modern day Jews? Modern day Christians? Just in general? And of course, the views of one group are of little import for those of another.

Which 'hell' dogma? Most all modern day Jews that I am aware of believe in a state of eternal death, which is not the same thing as eternal torment (or is it?).

It is a wonderful place, ya? Learn something new most every day!

Anat

Indeed, modern Jews do not believe in eternal torment, and I don't think such a belief ever existed in Judaism. From What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven? Purgatory?

Chris Weimer

If I warn someone that for sinning they will spend eternity in Mordor, am I being literal? Of course not. Many of Jesus references referred to Gehenna and worms which was a metaphorical symbol in Isaiah and Jeremiah. So, it is likely that Jesus was also being metaphorical.

As for the entire Revelation, it is merely a historical-apocalyptic work common to 1 CE. Judaism (cf. Daniel).

Jagella

It's a wonder all right. While debating Christians about the Bible, they seem fond of telling me that although the text may say one thing, it means something quite different. However, I’m starting to realize that some atheists do the same thing! It’s a wonder.

Now I’ve been told that I don’t know what I’m talking regarding this business about what the New Testament says about hell because I cannot read Greek. Is this a valid criticism? Although it is true that I cannot read Greek, I have known people who can. My Pentecostal pastor, for example, could read Greek, and he told me he preferred to read the New Testament in the original Greek. He never once told me that the view of hell as a place where the damned are tormented forever is merely based on translation errors! In fact, he told me he was a Christian because he didn’t wish to end up in the “lake of fire.� Moreover, when I told him I no longer believed in what the Bible claimed, he was aghast and warned me about the dire consequences of being wrong. So as I hope you can see, knowing the New Testament Greek does not necessarily result in a person concluding that the traditional Christian concept of hell is wrong.

So let’s take a look again at what’s being claimed here. The commonly held view of hell—as a place of eternal torment for unbelievers and other sinners—appears nowhere in the Bible. Although hundreds of millions of Christians for many centuries have believed that the Bible teaches that hell is a place of everlasting torment, such a belief cannot be found in the Septuagint and is nothing more than translation errors on the part of monks? I don’t know about other people, but I find this idea to be ridiculous.

Finally, I’ve been told that none of the Jews in the first century believed in hell as a place of eternal punishment for sinners. Is this claim valid? Although I haven’t done any extensive research on this topic, I believe using just a little common sense can show this claim to be shaky at best. Although it is probable that belief in such a hell among the Jews at that time was quite rare, can we really conclude that none of the Jews believed it? Heck, even today it is not all that uncommon for Jews, Christians, and other religious people to adopt unorthodox views about their religion, so why conclude that it was impossible for the Jews of the first century to be any different? One would need to both be able to travel in time and to read minds to make the claim that no first century Jews believed in hell as a place of eternal torment. As a result, I submit that this claim is unfounded as well.

Jagella

MortalWombat

Have you forgotten the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus? In it, Jesus gives the reader the very clear view that hell is both a place of agony and a place that one can never escape from.

The great chasm that no one can cross sounds to me like a permanent barrier, and hence eternal.

Edited to add: I may have misread and thought that you believe that there is no mention of an eternal place of torment. After rereading the thread more closely, it appears that you are actually agreeing with me. Sorry about the confusion

Jagella

Maybe you wouldn’t be threatening people with a literal eternal punishment in Mordor, but it’s entirely possible that somebody else might be. If somebody is a fanatic on a religious crusade—like Jesus probably was—then common sense and a recognition of the difference between reality and fantasy often end up flying out the window. You cannot justifiably conclude that since you would not make a silly threat, then Jesus wouldn’t either!

Maybe he was being metaphorical, but I know of nothing in the text about Jesus being metaphorical save for the parables he taught. Even in the parables, the concepts Jesus taught—such as torment in flames after death—were concepts that were meant to be taken seriously. Otherwise, why tell these stories? Is it not silly to warn people that a metaphor awaits them if they continue to sin?

Jagella

Jagella

I agree! That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to explain here for quite some time. I believe you may misunderstand what I’m arguing. I’m arguing for the stance that the New Testament teaches eternal torment in hell—not against it.

Jagella