Wayne Delia

Here is the passage from Mark 16:15-18 from the KJV (other translations available as well):

The "smoking gun" is in the latter part of verse 18; any illness can be cured with just prayer and laying on of hands. Notice Jesus says in verse 17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe," not "And these signs will follow just you guys." A popular excuse, I guess, would be that a severed limb does not qualify as someone being "sick" which can be healed via Mark 16:18. In that case, Mark 11:22-24 is the safety net:

The obvious loophole, the fine print, the basis of the scam is in the latter part of verse 24. "You must have faith in God" needs to be combined with "You must convince yourself that you got what you asked for," but regardless of a Christian's self-deception, either a severed limb can be restored, or it cannot. There are no documented cases of a severed limb actually being restored, ever, by prayer or laying on of hands alone, with no medical or prosthetical assistance. (Some limbs HAVE been restored, of course, but the "laying on of hands" requires surgery, often by non-Christian doctors.)

The problem here is that these two passages have been pointed out to you many, many times in past discussions. Why are you still unaware of them?

WMD

Wayne Delia

Seriously, is your Bible missing the pages containing Mark 11:22-24 and Mark 16:17-18?

Now you're aware of where in the Bible that outcome is suggested.

The excuse "I don’t see anything in the Bible to suggest that outcome" doesn't stall very long, especially when there's actually a reference in the Bible which suggests that outcome.

The premise is a quadruple amputee of no particular religious affiliation, and the question is whether God could restore and regrow his limbs by answering the prayers of a faithful Christian doctor to do so, or whether the Christian doctor could do it himself with his special super-powers promised in Mark 16:17-18. Whether the soldier should have been seeking God's protection is irrelevant. The question is whether Jesus's promises in Mark 16:17-18 and Mark 11:22-24 actually work. They don't. They're useless.

That's just flat out ridiculous. The Bible says God fixes all problems in response to the prayer request of a faithful Christian (Mark 11:22-24) or that a faithful Christian can cure any disease by just laying on of hands (Mark 16:18). Now you're ducking the question by claiming that God should be asked to fix problems only before the problems occur? I'm really good at fixing problems that haven't happened yet, too. So, essentially, Jesus's promises in those two references are useless? You can pray for the solution to any problem (Mark 11:22-24), but it "won't work" if there's actually any problem?

Wow, you've got all the bases covered there, don'tcha? Fine. Let's look at each case. A soldier serving in Iraq drives over a land mine and loses all four limbs. (This example would have worked just as well as losing only one limb.)

"Either the person depends on God or he doesn't." Let's consider the case where he does. Suppose the soldier is a faithful Christian who does depend on God. Will the limbs be restored if the soldier prays for it? If not, then Jesus was wrong in Mark 11:22-24. There are a total of zero reported cases of this actually happening. If it did work, why are there no reported occurrances of this phenomenon?

Now let's consider the case where the soldier does not depend on God. The soldier could be an atheist, or a non-Christian theist. Same scenario - quadruple amputee. Would the limbs be expected to be regrown if the soldier prays to God? No, of course not, because the soldier isn't a Christian, and God isn't as all-loving as He's cracked up to be, so Mark 11:22-24 does not apply. But what about Mark 16:17-18? We don't even need a Christian surgeon here. All we need is a Christian willing to lay hands on the respective bloody stumps, and the injured war hero should be up and around in no time. In fact, all we need is a Christian with as little as what Jesus described as a mustard seed's worth of faith, to pray that the arms and legs get regrown, and Mark 11:22-24 is back on the table.

You believe entirely too much of what "you are told," especially from the Bible. I'll show you why it's important for you to one day be able to think for yourself. Let's take a look at what you've been told here:

Keep in mind that's part of the Old Testament, and you'll be contrasting that with what Jesus Himself said in the New Testament, as reported in Mark. In the 2 Chronicles reference, God only shows off in front of those "whose heart is perfect toward Him." In other words, a person's faith must be perfect. That's very convenient for the unfalsifiable claim that God is a miracle-worker; if the miracle doesn't show up, the victim can always be blamed because he didn't have sufficient faith.

But in Mark 11:22-24, Jesus turns that lesson on its head. Have faith in God, Jesus says, because all sorts of amazing things can happen even with just a little faith. Perfect faith is not necessary; in fact, all that's necessary is a very, very small amount of faith. So small, that Jesus felt a proper analogy to the amount of faith necessary to move a mountain was a mustard seed's worth of faith (in Matthew 17:20, in the same context), which Jesus earlier mistakenly identified as the smallest seed in the earth (in Mark 4:31). Jesus, most likely, was exaggerating to make his point: perfect faith is not necessary, but huge things can supposedly happen with just a little faith.

Then how would it be possible for a person with as little as a mustard seed's worth of faith to be able to move mountains, as Jesus said in Matthew 17:20?
What you're doing here is blaming the victim for the complete absense of any trace of your imaginary God's claimed power. Also, the faith of the victim is irrelevant, since all it would take is a faithful Christian who exercises his magical super-healing powers promised in Mark 16:17-18 by laying hands on the victim - or by praying to God to regrow the limbs, invoking the guarantee made by Jesus in Mark 11:22-24.

Face it. Your God's promises don't work. Limbs don't get regrown miraculously. Jesus was either wrong, lying, or exaggerating, and what is promised in Mark 11:22-24 and Mark 16:17-18 flat out doesn't work. You can make all sorts of claims, but when it comes time to support the claims, all you have is excuses why the claims don't apply, even though the claims themselves have no loopholes or restrictions (except in Mark 11:24, in which the person making a prayer request has to convince himself that it's been delivered). Your critics are asking you for an explanation, and you're giving a reference to an obscure Old Testament verse that, for some reason, should overturn what Jesus promised. That Jesus, what a character! Always taking every opportunity to bullshit us with these promises of Christians getting anything they pray for, including mountain-moving, and Christians being able to perform amazing stunts that Christians don't even have the balls to attempt, much less successfully pull off.

WMD

popeye1

rhutchin
Above another pointed question from Wayne MD for you to answer directly without sidestepping .Might I suggest you get some help from your church historians or professors it seems you could use some help from some source. I am not being argumentative but am merely curious as to how you're going to answer these questions.please give a straight at an informative answer if you can so that we might all learn something.

Wayne Delia

Tell that to all the leprosy victims unsuccessfully treated with live and dead pigeon blood, as the Bible recommended.

"Don't bother with surgery or antibiotics. Just become a Christian, and you'll be able to cure anything with prayer and laying on of hands." (Mark 16:17-18)

I suppose it would be good advice for a doctor following that Biblical suggestion to be paid up on his malpractice insurance premiums.

WMD

Wayne Delia

It is, if you have to assume it's true before beginning to investigate whether it's true or false.

That's only possible if there are no Bible contradictions. The technical term for the number of actual Bible contradictions is "Shitload". It then comes down to how willing one is to ignore these contradictions, and sadly, one's strength of faith is said to be directly proportional to that willingness to be intellectually dishonest. Not surprisingly, that correlation is proposed by church officials who have a vested interest in their congregations not examining all these contradictions too closely.

A proper response would NOT be "I fail to see any contradictions in the Bible," because they're still there.

WMD

John A. Broussard

You, of course, didn't answer the question.

After seeking god's protection, the soldier now has his limbs blown off.

Is there any point in his praying to god for new ones to grow back?

If he does, should he expect them to in fact grow back?

Wouldn't this be just as worthy as praying to god for a cure to one's incurable cancer?

John A. Broussard

In other words, we shouldn't follow in the footsteps of Christ.

Is that what you are saying?

John A. Broussard

Since we can't understand what the bible says, how can it be of any possible value to a scientist who is looking for a cure for malaria?

Please explain.

John A. Broussard

Got it!

The bible didn't impede science by stating that the sun moved around the earth, that the earth was flat, that a universal flood wiped out all human beings (one family exempted) and animals a few thousand years ago. the impediments were caused by men who read the bible.

Makes sense to me. If no one read the bible, there would have been no impediments.

Thanks for the clarification.

rhutchin

No, I would not say that. My view is that we should do those things that Christ taught us to do.