Born Again Skeptic

I just watched the trailer to the movie The Beast. While I'm definitely going to see it, the claim it made that Jesus didn't exist seemed a little odd to me. I've always been aware that people made the claim that Jesus didn't exist, but from my general impression of the historical community, they were considered crackpots. I don't have any proof to back my current position up, but I believe that Jesus existed, but was just a man. I remember going to some lecture by a historian who said that there is more proof that Jesus existed than there is for other prominent historical figures like Julius Caesar.

*IS* there any good evidence to doubt the existence of Jesus?

Julian

Nobody really knows if he existed or not. There is no contemporary evidence outside of the bible. There are good reasons for believing that he didn't exist. Start here:

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

Julian

Aria

This is not only wrong, but hilariously wrong. I really hope you were misunderstanding and no historian would make this claim. Caesar was contemporary to a lot of writers and other cultures, and is recorded all over the place. Hell, we even know exactly what he looked like.

There is absolutley no secular evidence for Jesus anywhere. The one mention of him by an outside scholar was a later (centuries) insertion.

There are a lot of reasons to not believe Jesus ever existed. Primarily, the Jesus myth perfectly paralells Mithra, which predates christianity.

Toto

Hi Born Again - Some Christians claim that anyone who doubts the existence of Jesus is a crackpot. I think that this is just a tactic to avoid dealing with the issue.

There are in fact some crackpots who think that Jesus never existed, but I would be willing to bet that there are many more crackpots who think that he did.

The idea that Jesus was just a man was a very popular concept after the Enlightenment, especially among rationalists who tried to make sense of Christianity, and especially among historians who thought that history was shaped by Great Men, so that Christianity must have been started by an extraordinary man. The current trend in history is to view great men are the product of social forces rather than the cause, and to see Christianity as the result of social, economic, and political forces rather than the result of a single personality.

The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty is a good place to start, either the book or the web page. There is more on the recommended reading page.

edited to add: The Jesus myth does not "perfectly" parallel that of Mithras, and I don't want this thread to get diverted to that subject. If you search for old threads on Mithras, you will find some detailed discussions.

Born Again Skeptic

I've read a little about Mithras and it was strikingly similar to the Jesus myth. However, my question is, which came first?

Julian

Mithras, by many, many years...

Toto

You guys don't take a hint, do you?

last thread on Mithras

another thread on Mithras

Myths about Mithras

Most of what you read about Mithras-Christian connections is "not well sourced" (a/k/a "crap.") We don't actually know a lot about Mithraism, but it appears that the Roman Mithraism is not connected to the Persian Mithra. Also Mithras was not born of a virgin, and there were no shepherds, etc.

Christianity and Mithraism were both official religions of the Roman Empire under Constantine, along with the cult of Sol Invictus. Constantine deliberately tried to blend the three religions.

No more posts in this thread about Mithras until you do your homework and read the above threads and the links in them.

freigeister

The idea that Jesus was just a man has been a very unpopular concept since the very earliest writings on the subject, back at least to the book on heresies written by Irenaeus ca. 200 where he decries the Ebionites for holding that Jesus was "a plain and common man". The belief that Jesus was a man not endowed with supernatural powers has been opposed throughout the centuries by those who hold that Jesus is divine, and is now opposed by those who hold that Jesus is a myth.

Wallener

Weren't the original apostles Ebionites? And then there's this bit...

Not sure I'd put a whole lot of trust into comments from Irenaues or other Paulinites regarding Ebionites.

steph s.

without solid and trustworthy secular sources, the only extrabiblical evidence to go on is writings by early christians. earl doherty's site mentioned above examines some of these. take a look.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/incarnation.html