Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Garnet · 02-24-2006, 07:27 AM

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Act 5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him].

Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

Another New Testament goodie. Doesn't speak well to forgiveness, does it?

Codec · 02-24-2006, 08:23 AM

Genesis 19:

Quote:

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

What moral lesson do we draw from this... and as if that wasn't bad enough... its more or less repeated a little while later.

Judges 19:

Quote:

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

Obviously there is some point being made here that totally escapes me. I find it just beyond belief (NPI).

Chris Weimer · 02-24-2006, 08:27 AM

Revelation 1.1-22.21 (as interpreted by Christians today).

Garnet · 02-24-2006, 08:43 AM

Codec, you forgot the part where she is chopped to pieces and those pieces are sent to the tribes of Israel.

Codec · 02-24-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garnet

Codec, you forgot the part where she is chopped to pieces and those pieces are sent to the tribes of Israel.

True - it just gets better and better.

Then again the rest of Genesis 19 - what Lot and his daughters got up to after escaping Sodom isn't a great moral compass either. What was the redactor thinking... it would sell more copies??

jjramsey · 02-24-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codec

Obviously there is some point being made here that totally escapes me. I find it just beyond belief (NPI).

The point being made was that Israel during the time of the Judges was chaotic and ugly and all gone to heck. Sending out the twelve pieces of the dead concubine to the tribes of Israel was supposed to be a grisly demonstration to call attention to this. Not much different then having an open-casket funeral for a black kid who got beaten and mutilated to death by white Southerners for cheekily whistling at a white woman.

There are plenty of places in the Bible where bad things were portrayed as good, such as the depictions of the Israelites committing genocide as they took over Canaan. That doesn't justify distorting the facts by misrepresenting stories that were supposed to be bad examples, such as Genesis 19, as if they were meant to be positive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codec

what Lot and his daughters got up to after escaping Sodom isn't a great moral compass either. What was the redactor thinking... it would sell more copies??

Whoever made up the story (which was probably older than the redactor) was probably making fun of Israel's enemies by depicting them as the descendents of sons born of incest.

Chris Weimer · 02-24-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Whoever made up the story (which was probably older than the redactor) was probably making fun of Israel's enemies by depicting them as the descendents of sons born of incest.

I'm not so sure. After all, Sara is Abraham's sister, and if you go back far enough, there had to be a little interbreeding with Adam's family or even Noah's family.

jjramsey · 02-24-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I'm not so sure. After all, Sara is Abraham's sister, and if you go back far enough, there had to be a little interbreeding with Adam's family or even Noah's family.

Yet the implication of Genesis 19 is that Lot's daughters had to ply him with drink in order to get him to lie with them, which indicates that having sex with his daughters is not something's he'd want to do sober. And again, the offspring are purported to be the ancestors of rivals to Israel: Moab and Ammon. This story is probably not meant to be complimentary to them.

Codec · 02-24-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

The point being made was that Israel during the time of the Judges was chaotic and ugly and all gone to heck.

What I find disgusting about it though, is here are men, quite willing to sacrifice their own daughters to the whims of a crowd, rather than break some sort of hospitality pledge. As a moral story, I can't see any reason behind it. As a historical narative, its hardly essential to the plot. It just seem gratuitous.

Quote:

Whoever made up the story (which was probably older than the redactor) was probably making fun of Israel's enemies by depicting them as the descendents of sons born of incest.

The redactor had the option to cut these section, in fact probably more than once.

jjramsey · 02-24-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Codec

What I find disgusting about it though, is here are men, quite willing to sacrifice their own daughters to the whims of a crowd, rather than break some sort of hospitality pledge. As a moral story, I can't see any reason behind it. As a historical narative, its hardly essential to the plot. It just seem gratuitous.

If you are trying to portray Israel as having gone to hell in a handbasket, the story isn't gratuitous at all. Yes, it's ugly and disgusting and disturbing; that's the whole point.

What's really scary is when genocide is presented as the will of God. Ugly stories that are supposed to be bad examples are another matter.

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02-24-2006, 07:27 AM	#11
Garnet Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 6,610	Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, Act 5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet. Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband. Another New Testament goodie. Doesn't speak well to forgiveness, does it?

02-24-2006, 08:27 AM	#13
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Revelation 1.1-22.21 (as interpreted by Christians today).

02-24-2006, 08:43 AM	#14
Garnet Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 6,610	Codec, you forgot the part where she is chopped to pieces and those pieces are sent to the tribes of Israel.

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