Freethought & Rationalism Archive

littlepecan · 03-27-2008, 06:45 PM

MFSM, please direct me directly in the right direction. I've got fundies saying that there's loads and loads of archeological evidence proving "most" (however much that amounts to) of the Bible (OT and NT) as historically accurate.

I won't bother you for all the details here, as I've only been a member for about 6 months and I am sure this has an answer somewhere else. If you could just send me to some good sources, other threads...I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

------------------------------------------
answersingenesis

It's like Westboro, for science!

karlmarx · 03-27-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlepecan

MFSM, please direct me directly in the right direction. I've got fundies saying that there's loads and loads of archeological evidence proving "most" (however much that amounts to) of the Bible (OT and NT) as historically accurate.

I won't bother you for all the details here, as I've only been a member for about 6 months and I am sure this has an answer somewhere else. If you could just send me to some good sources, other threads...I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

------------------------------------------
answersingenesis

It's like Westboro, for science!

try for the ot:

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
Israel Finkelstein & Neil Asher Silberman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

not sure what you'd find for the nt: there are obvious historical figures there, like Pilate and Herod, but no archeological evidence for anyone else

littlepecan · 03-27-2008, 07:13 PM

Thanks!

Minimalist · 03-27-2008, 07:42 PM

Try these if you want to post something online.

http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Refe..._(Harpers).htm

Quote:

In the last quarter century or so, archaeologists have seen one settled assumption after another concerning who the ancient Israelites were and where they came from proved false. Rather than a band of invaders who fought their way into the Holy Land, the Israelites are now thought to have been an 'indigenous culture that developed west of the Jordan River around 1200 B.C. Abraham, Isaac, and the other patriarchs appear to have been spliced together out of various pieces of local lore.

or

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/a...ogy-bible.html

Quote:

Archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman agree with Egyptologist Donald B. Redford that there was no Exodus.

Redford, in attacking Freud's linking of Moses with Akhnaten, misses Freud's point. Freud admits that Yahweh is a vindictive tribal god, but TRANSFERS Jewish Monotheism to the allegedly universalist deity of Akhnaten. I say "allegedly", because of Akhnaten's intolerant iconoclasm.

Freud on Akhnaten and Moses: moses.html.

Redford and Finkelstein say that the geographical place-names in Biblical accounts are reliable for the 7th & 6th centuries BC, but not for earlier times, showing that it cannot be regarded as a "history" of those earlier times.

(1) The Exodus story as the foundation of Judaism (2) Egyptologist Donald B. Redford on the Exodus story (3) Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, The Bible Unearthed (4) Jewish chutzpah in praise of the Hyksos (5) Martin Bernal, in Black Athena, equates the Exodus with the Expulsion of the Hyksos (6) John Romer on the Exodus (7) David Ben-Gurion on the Exodus (8) Thomas L. Thompson, "one of the world's leading Biblical archaeologists", branded an "Anti-Semite" for saying that the Bible is not History but Literature (9) The Israel Stela (Merenptah Stele); more from Romer, Finkelstein and Silberman (10) The Sea Peoples destroy the Hittite Empire, weaken Egypt, and lead to the formation of the Hebrew states - Redford

Baalazel · 03-27-2008, 08:01 PM

Hello Littlepecan, the first thing to do is not let them get away with the "loads and loads" crap. Ask for real information. Real sites. Real books. Demand to see their evidence. The next thing you need to do is get to your local library. The literature available on biblical archeology is massive. Don't let them dominate the debate. They are used to people just giving in when they throw around the BS. They are wrong and you need to accept that truth and beat them over the head with it. Have fun.

Baal

Minimalist · 03-27-2008, 09:18 PM

To follow up, ask for the dates of their alleged evidence.

In the early part of the 20th century, preachers masquerading as archaeologists ran around announcing that every rock they turned over was something that Moses had pissed on.

Unfortunately for them archaeologists kept digging with the result that the early bible-based bullshit story has been overturned.

Roland · 03-27-2008, 09:35 PM

"The Bible Unearthed" makes it clear that, not only did the exodus not occur, but many of the cities that Joshua ostensibly conquered in the land of Canaan (Jericho, Ai, etc.) were actually uninhabited at the time.

spamandham · 03-27-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlepecan

MFSM, please direct me directly in the right direction. I've got fundies saying that there's loads and loads of archeological evidence proving "most" (however much that amounts to) of the Bible (OT and NT) as historically accurate.

I usually don't even bother to demand they prove ridiculous statements like this, because to do so would allow the underlying reasoning to go unchallenged.

The underlying reasoning is "since the Bible accurately records ordinary events, it also accurately records fantastic events". This is a horribly flawed argument even if it were true that the Bible contained massive amounts of accurate history.

Attack that reasoning directly instead.

A good way to do that is to sucker them into agreeing that Josephus is an honorable and accurate historian. Any fundy who's heard of him will gleefully admit this. Then, point him to the story in book 6, chapter 5, paragraph 3 of the Jewish Wars, in which Josephus records armored soldiers and chariots flying around in the clouds, and ask if that too is historical.

Clivedurdle · 03-28-2008, 04:48 AM

On soldiers flying around in the clouds, beware!

Quote:

The Wars of The Jews
by Flavius Josephus
Written in 75 AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD

http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-jose...-fulfilled.htm

:devil1:

Darklighter · 03-28-2008, 08:59 AM

A simple rebuttle to their initial assertion, is to ask them for evidence that Moses wrote the Pentatuch. There isn't a drop of evidence anywhere. So, when they can't provide any, direct them to Deuteronomy 34, where "Moses" records his own death. Also ask them if they were aware of all the anachronisms that all point to a 7th/6th century composition (as opposed to the supposed 16th/15th century composition it's traditionally claimed to be).

Obviously, you'd need more than that for an continued dialogue, but that should be enough to shut them up for them time being.

And I can't recommend Israel Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed highly enough. It basicly shows that (while it does confirm the existence of certain Biblical cities) all available archaeological evidence contradicts the the actual events described right up to the exile in 586 bce.

And also look up the Wikipedia articles on Biblical archaeology and the history of Israel and the Levant and other related topics. They're suprisingly good.

Yeah, just a couple hours of research will make you an PhD'd expert compared to what most fundies know about near-east history.

03-27-2008, 06:45 PM	#1
littlepecan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bible Belt Central Villa Rica, GA Posts: 41	Archeology and the Bible MFSM, please direct me directly in the right direction. I've got fundies saying that there's loads and loads of archeological evidence proving "most" (however much that amounts to) of the Bible (OT and NT) as historically accurate. I won't bother you for all the details here, as I've only been a member for about 6 months and I am sure this has an answer somewhere else. If you could just send me to some good sources, other threads...I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance! ------------------------------------------ answersingenesis It's like Westboro, for science!

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03-27-2008, 07:13 PM	#3
littlepecan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bible Belt Central Villa Rica, GA Posts: 41	Thanks!

03-27-2008, 08:01 PM	#5
Baalazel Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Alabama Posts: 649	Hello Littlepecan, the first thing to do is not let them get away with the "loads and loads" crap. Ask for real information. Real sites. Real books. Demand to see their evidence. The next thing you need to do is get to your local library. The literature available on biblical archeology is massive. Don't let them dominate the debate. They are used to people just giving in when they throw around the BS. They are wrong and you need to accept that truth and beat them over the head with it. Have fun. Baal

03-27-2008, 09:18 PM	#6
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	To follow up, ask for the dates of their alleged evidence. In the early part of the 20th century, preachers masquerading as archaeologists ran around announcing that every rock they turned over was something that Moses had pissed on. Unfortunately for them archaeologists kept digging with the result that the early bible-based bullshit story has been overturned.

03-27-2008, 09:35 PM	#7
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	"The Bible Unearthed" makes it clear that, not only did the exodus not occur, but many of the cities that Joshua ostensibly conquered in the land of Canaan (Jericho, Ai, etc.) were actually uninhabited at the time.

03-28-2008, 08:59 AM	#10
Darklighter Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pale Blue Dot Posts: 463	A simple rebuttle to their initial assertion, is to ask them for evidence that Moses wrote the Pentatuch. There isn't a drop of evidence anywhere. So, when they can't provide any, direct them to Deuteronomy 34, where "Moses" records his own death. Also ask them if they were aware of all the anachronisms that all point to a 7th/6th century composition (as opposed to the supposed 16th/15th century composition it's traditionally claimed to be). Obviously, you'd need more than that for an continued dialogue, but that should be enough to shut them up for them time being. And I can't recommend Israel Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed highly enough. It basicly shows that (while it does confirm the existence of certain Biblical cities) all available archaeological evidence contradicts the the actual events described right up to the exile in 586 bce. And also look up the Wikipedia articles on Biblical archaeology and the history of Israel and the Levant and other related topics. They're suprisingly good. Yeah, just a couple hours of research will make you an PhD'd expert compared to what most fundies know about near-east history.

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