Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 03-09-2008, 07:38 AM

Consider the following Scripture:

Mark 8:11-12

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."

John 3:2

"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

Doesn't John 3:2 refer to signs being given unto this generation?

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-09-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scripture:

Mark 8:11-12

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."

John 3:2

"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

Doesn't John 3:2 refer to signs being given unto this generation?

Only if you assume that in Mark's eyes "signs" and "miracles" were one and the same. You'd do well to have a look at V. K. Robbins' examination of this matter in his "Dunameis and Semeia in Mark" (Biblical Research 18 (1973) 1-16.) and my discussion of what it is that Jesus is asked to do in Mk. 8:11-12 in my "Jesus' Refusal To Produce a 'Sign' (Mk 8.11-13)", Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 12, No. 38, 37-66 (1990).

And where are the words "this generation" used by the Johannine Jesus?

Jeffrey

Decypher · 03-09-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scripture:

Mark 8:11-12

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."

John 3:2

"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

Doesn't John 3:2 refer to signs being given unto this generation?

Only if you assume that in Mark's eyes "signs" and "miracles" were one and the same. You'd do well to have a look at V. K. Robbins' examination of this matter in his "Dunameis and Semeia in Mark" (Biblical Research 18 (1973) 1-16.) and my discussion of what it is that Jesus is asked to do in Mk. 8:11-12 in my "Jesus' Refusal To Produce a 'Sign' (Mk 8.11-13)", Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 12, No. 38, 37-66 (1990).

And where are the words "this generation" used by the Johannine Jesus?

Jeffrey

As most of us probably aren't going to track down the references, any chance you could give a quick summary?

Decypher · 03-09-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

and my discussion of what it is that Jesus is asked to do in Mk. 8:11-12 in my "Jesus' Refusal To Produce a 'Sign'

Also, as you seem to have an interest in this kind of thing, do you have any thoughts on why Jesus does say that he will give a sign in the other synoptic gospels?

Quote:

Matthew 12

[38] Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas

Quote:

Luke 11

[29] And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

And John seems to say the same:

Quote:

John 2

[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-09-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Only if you assume that in Mark's eyes "signs" and "miracles" were one and the same. You'd do well to have a look at V. K. Robbins' examination of this matter in his "Dunameis and Semeia in Mark" (Biblical Research 18 (1973) 1-16.) and my discussion of what it is that Jesus is asked to do in Mk. 8:11-12 in my "Jesus' Refusal To Produce a 'Sign' (Mk 8.11-13)", Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 12, No. 38, 37-66 (1990).

And where are the words "this generation" used by the Johannine Jesus?

Jeffrey

As most of us probably aren't going to track down the references, any chance you could give a quick summary?

I could, but I am sorely disinclined to do so, since it would only encourage what seems to be a rampant practice here among the majority of posters-- and that's never to go to a library and to do some real research in the published liteature, but instead to limit oneself only to what one can find on the web.

I have no interest in facilitating that practice.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-09-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Only if you assume that in Mark's eyes "signs" and "miracles" were one and the same. You'd do well to have a look at V. K. Robbins' examination of this matter in his "Dunameis and Semeia in Mark" (Biblical Research 18 (1973) 1-16.) and my discussion of what it is that Jesus is asked to do in Mk. 8:11-12 in my "Jesus' Refusal To Produce a 'Sign' (Mk 8.11-13)", Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 12, No. 38, 37-66 (1990).

And where are the words "this generation" used by the Johannine Jesus?

Jeffrey

As most of us probably aren't going to track down the references

Which pretty much summarizes what's wrong with this forum. It's populated by posters who haven't, don't, and won't do the grunt work in the primary evidence and in the relevant scholarly literature that's necessary to have some expertise in matters NT, but who nevertheless claim to know what the NT and NT scholarship says.

Jeffrey

Toto · 03-09-2008, 12:01 PM

Temptations of Jesus in Early Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Jeffrey B. Gibson can be previewed online on Google books. Check the discussion around p 187 - 189. This is interesting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Now it should be pointed out that these characteristics are exactly those of the 'Sign Prophets' - Theudas, the unnamed gontes - the 'Egyptian' - who were active in Judea in the years immediately preceding the outbread of the Jewish Revolt against Rome and who would have been known to both Mark and his readers. They, too, claimed that they were expressly sent by God to fulfil a divine plan of liberation and worldly exaltation of Isreal which involved the violent overthrow of Isreal's enemies, and announcing that the time of salvation had arrived, they gathered followers and encouraged them to rise up against their oppressors. So not only is there a correspondence in Mark's gospel between the 'sign' workers of Mk 13.22 and the historical "Sign-Prophets" mentioned in Josephus and other sources, there is a correspondence so exact that it cannot be anything but intentionally drawn....

More interesting details in the footnotes and the following section.

This has obvious implications for the dating of Mark.

Decypher · 03-09-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

As most of us probably aren't going to track down the references

Which pretty much summarizes what's wrong with this forum. It's populated by posters who haven't, don't, and won't do the grunt work in the primary evidence and in the relevant scholarly literature that's necessary to have some expertise in matters NT, but who nevertheless claim to know what the NT and NT scholarship says.

Jeffrey

Remember that not everyone has easy access to the kind of library that would have those works, or the time to do it. It's also a fairly obscure matter. And we don't know if the works mentioned are really any good. If you gave an idea of the content, it may give people a better idea as to whether they would be worth finding. And of course, most people aren't going to track them down, and of course they aren't for such an obscure matter.

But if you object to such a request, so be it.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-09-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Which pretty much summarizes what's wrong with this forum. It's populated by posters who haven't, don't, and won't do the grunt work in the primary evidence and in the relevant scholarly literature that's necessary to have some expertise in matters NT, but who nevertheless claim to know what the NT and NT scholarship says.

Jeffrey

Remember that not everyone has easy access to the kind of library that would have those works, or the time to do it.

That's quite evident from many of the messages that get posted here.

Quote:

It's also a fairly obscure matter. And we don't know if the works mentioned are really any good. If you gave an idea of the content, it may give people a better idea as to whether they would be worth finding. And of course, most people aren't going to track them down, and of course they aren't for such an obscure matter.

But is it really "obscure"? And since, as you yourself admit, you haven't done much, if any, reading in the literature, how would you know?:Cheeky:

Jeffrey

arnoldo · 03-09-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Temptations of Jesus in Early Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Jeffrey B. Gibson can be previewed online on Google books. Check the discussion around p 187 - 189. This is interesting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Now it should be pointed out that these characteristics are exactly those of the 'Sign Prophets' - Theudas, the unnamed gontes - the 'Egyptian' - who were active in Judea in the years immediately preceding the outbread of the Jewish Revolt against Rome and who would have been known to both Mark and his readers. They, too, claimed that they were expressly sent by God to fulfil a divine plan of liberation and worldly exaltation of Isreal which involved the violent overthrow of Isreal's enemies, and announcing that the time of salvation had arrived, they gathered followers and encouraged them to rise up against their oppressors. So not only is there a correspondence in Mark's gospel between the 'sign' workers of Mk 13.22 and the historical "Sign-Prophets" mentioned in Josephus and other sources, there is a correspondence so exact that it cannot be anything but intentionally drawn....

More interesting details in the footnotes and the following section.

This has obvious implications for the dating of Mark.

It also has obvious implications for the dating of Acts which mentions an "Egyptian" who attempted to overthrow Israel's enemies .

Quote:

And Paul being about to be led into the castle, saith to the chief captain, 'Is it permitted to me to say anything unto thee?' and he said, 'Greek dost thou know? 38 art not thou, then, the Egyptian who before these days made an uprising, and did lead into the desert the four thousand men of the assassins?' 39 And Paul said, 'I, indeed, am a man, a Jew, of Tarsus of Cilicia, of no mean city a citizen; and I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.' 40 And he having given him leave, Paul having stood upon the stairs, did beckon with the hand to the people, and there having been a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew dialect, saying:

03-09-2008, 07:38 AM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	A question about Mark 8:11-12 and John 3:2 Consider the following Scripture: Mark 8:11-12 "And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation." John 3:2 "The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." Doesn't John 3:2 refer to signs being given unto this generation?

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