Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 03-18-2005, 01:46 PM

Mark 13:21 - And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not"

Are you sure you have the right passage

And Mark 14:21 still doesn't necessarily imply that he will burn in hell. In fact, when taken in context of the whole book, that doesn't appear to be the case at all.

zaitzeff · 03-19-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Mark 13:21 - And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not"

Are you sure you have the right passage

And Mark 14:21 still doesn't necessarily imply that he will burn in hell. In fact, when taken in context of the whole book, that doesn't appear to be the case at all.

right; it shoud be 14:21 and not 13:21

However, even if you suppose annihilationism (one ceases to exist if one is not righteous and received into heaven), then that is still not universalism.

Re Judas, I don't know of any conservative, Bible-believing Christians who believe that Judas went to heaven.

Chili · 03-19-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaitzeff

Re Judas, I don't know of any conservative, Bible-believing Christians who believe that Judas went to heaven.

He didn't or there would be Jews in heaven and temples in the New Jerusalem.

Judas represents Judaism as a means to the end only.

ManM · 03-21-2005, 07:55 AM

An interesting article on this subject is "The River of Fire" by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros. In it he presents a middle ground of sorts. Heaven and Hell were not considered to be two different places, but rather two different ways of experiencing the same place. We are all saved from death (universalist) and given eternal life. Some will experience the next life as heaven, others as hell, but the same external circumstances will be experienced by all.

zaitzeff · 03-21-2005, 02:58 PM

you think that God has a time-limit on when he will accept a person repenting and desiring His mercy and help? Some Father that would be! Luke 15:11!!

>The price of those who chose to harder their hearts and do wickedness was worth >the multitude who choose God and will spend eternity with him.

I just saw the movie Ice Princess. In the movie, a girl with a dream to win (Casey) is sabotaged in competition by the mom of another ice skater (Jen). Shortly afterwards, the other ice skater (Jen) quits as a competitor, and the mom and the sabotaged girl (Casey) reconcile enough to work together.

If any benefit or blessing you receive comes to you at the expense of the eternal well-being of another soul, do you really want that gift? Please remember, God predestined each one of us to our life and to our fate. If someone is then in heaven and God says to him, "In order for you to be here in heaven, not only did Jesus have to die, but I also had to create a bunch of people I knew would go to hell. Your being here in heaven comes at the price of their being in hell." Any sensible person would respond by saying to God that that deal is a very poor deal. He would say, "Heaven bought at such a price is like stolen food that the proverb says is like gravel in the mouth. Stop what you have done; reverse everything; I cannot receive such an ill-bought gift at the expense of another person."

And, if my going to heaven or receiving benefits and your going to heaven and receiving benefits did not require the living of life by such people as Hitler and bin Laden, what motive did God have in creating them? Either God had no possible good motive in their creation, or, you receive heaven or some benefit at the cost of a person who is now writhing in agony in hell or will be writhing in agony in hell!

in response to:

If the above scenario of Hitler-in-hell happened, God's response would have to be, "Oh my child, don't see what incredible lengths I went for you? I followed you all of your life, giving you countless chances to accept my offer to pay your fine, and you rejected it all along. Now that you are in prison for our crimes, and the sentence has been passed, what can I do? You are under judgement now. If only you had listened! If only you had let me shower you with the mercy I so wanted to give you! I planned 2000 years in advance to show you mercy, and yet you hardened your heart, rejected me, and persecuted my people. And now it is your life that is paying for your crimes."

Zeichman · 03-23-2005, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaitzeff

right; it shoud be 14:21 and not 13:21
Re Judas, I don't know of any conservative, Bible-believing Christians who believe that Judas went to heaven.

A Sunday School teacher of mine (who voted Perot) taught that this was true. For Christians, it wouldn't be hard to argue that Judas had repented of his sins, especially from the Matthean account.

zaitzeff · 03-23-2005, 03:13 PM

It seems more like that the all of romans 11:32 would be each person, as in Romans 3:10-23, romans 3:23 in particular. I don't know any Christians who would claim that romans 3:23 simply means that some few of the Gentiles and some few of the Jews have sinned so as to qualify their category as being under sin.

"the "all men" or "everyone" in 2:4 alludes to the extension of God's saving grace not only to the lower classes among men, but to those from all walks of life: the rich and the poor, the wise and the foolish, etc. - even kings."

Notsri, this interpretation is offered by Augustine and John Calvin: that God does not will the salvation of all individual men, but only of some men of each kind of men or some men of each class of men. Let me ask, if God is a good and loving God, why would God neglect to will the salvation of the rest of men, i.e. those not elected? God only loves some and not others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notsri

Hey, Peter. I just wanted to quickly offer some alternative interpretations to a few of your verses.

I think "all" in v. 32 = Jew & Gentile, not mankind's every individual. Of course, the whole of ch. 11 concerns the issue of the ultimate salvation of Israel, i.e. the Jews will eventually accept Jesus as Christ. In 11:13 Paul specifies that he's actually addressing (in ch. 11) the Gentile Christians of Rome : "...I am speaking to you who are Gentiles" (v. 13). Then, in vv. 30-32, still writing with a view to the Gentile audience, Paul says: "30 For just as you [Gentiles] once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their [i.e. the Jews'] disobedience, 31 so these [the Jews] also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you [Gentiles] they [the Jews] also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God delivered all [i.e. Jew & Gentile] to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all [i.e. Jew & Gentile]."

"In Christ shall all be brought to life," i.e. resurrected; but not necessarily saved.

IIUC, the vast majority of early Christians were lower-class individuals; which fact I think is made fairly explicit even in the NT itself: e.g. 1Cor. 1:26ff.: "For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are..."

I would suggest, then, given the fact that the author of 1Tim. asks Timothy to pray even "for kings and all who are in authority" (2:2), that the "all men" or "everyone" in 2:4 alludes to the extension of God's saving grace not only to the lower classes among men, but to those from all walks of life: the rich and the poor, the wise and the foolish, etc. - even kings.

I think essentially the same interpretation applies to Titus 2:11 as well: John Calvin commented: "that [salvation] is common to all is expressly testified by [Paul] on account of the slaves of whom he had spoken [in 2:9,10]. Yet he does not mean individual men [by "all men" in 2:11], but rather describes individual classes, or various ranks of life."

To draw from Calvin again, he suggests that "swthr is here a general term, and denotes one who defends and preserves. He means that the kindness of God extends to all men. And if there is no man who does not feel the goodness of God towards him, and who is not a partaker of it, how much more shall it be experienced by the godly, who hope in him?"

Similarly, John Gill interpreted: "'Who is the savior of all men' - in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life."

Regards,
Notsri

zaitzeff · 03-24-2005, 11:05 AM

since you now deny that God knows the future (because the future does not yet exist and God can't know what doesn't yet exist), then, how can God- who doesn't know the future--tell you that there will be some people who eternally reject God? According to you, not even God knows that! For, any person in "hell," unless he is extinguished and ceases to exist, may turn again to God and pray for mercy and help. And, we both agree, that if he does so, God would grant him mercy and help.

If God doesn't know the future, as you now allege, how would he not know that Hitler will never turn and repent?

And, if God doesn't know the future, that would make the Bible misleading, which is your objection to my view that God will save all eventually or that all will be eventually saved or that all have been saved.

03-21-2005, 02:58 PM	#45
zaitzeff Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: ventura and seattle Posts: 44	some Father that would be! you think that God has a time-limit on when he will accept a person repenting and desiring His mercy and help? Some Father that would be! Luke 15:11!! >The price of those who chose to harder their hearts and do wickedness was worth >the multitude who choose God and will spend eternity with him. I just saw the movie Ice Princess. In the movie, a girl with a dream to win (Casey) is sabotaged in competition by the mom of another ice skater (Jen). Shortly afterwards, the other ice skater (Jen) quits as a competitor, and the mom and the sabotaged girl (Casey) reconcile enough to work together. If any benefit or blessing you receive comes to you at the expense of the eternal well-being of another soul, do you really want that gift? Please remember, God predestined each one of us to our life and to our fate. If someone is then in heaven and God says to him, "In order for you to be here in heaven, not only did Jesus have to die, but I also had to create a bunch of people I knew would go to hell. Your being here in heaven comes at the price of their being in hell." Any sensible person would respond by saying to God that that deal is a very poor deal. He would say, "Heaven bought at such a price is like stolen food that the proverb says is like gravel in the mouth. Stop what you have done; reverse everything; I cannot receive such an ill-bought gift at the expense of another person." And, if my going to heaven or receiving benefits and your going to heaven and receiving benefits did not require the living of life by such people as Hitler and bin Laden, what motive did God have in creating them? Either God had no possible good motive in their creation, or, you receive heaven or some benefit at the cost of a person who is now writhing in agony in hell or will be writhing in agony in hell! in response to: If the above scenario of Hitler-in-hell happened, God's response would have to be, "Oh my child, don't see what incredible lengths I went for you? I followed you all of your life, giving you countless chances to accept my offer to pay your fine, and you rejected it all along. Now that you are in prison for our crimes, and the sentence has been passed, what can I do? You are under judgement now. If only you had listened! If only you had let me shower you with the mercy I so wanted to give you! I planned 2000 years in advance to show you mercy, and yet you hardened your heart, rejected me, and persecuted my people. And now it is your life that is paying for your crimes."

03-24-2005, 11:05 AM	#48
zaitzeff Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: ventura and seattle Posts: 44	God's foreknowledge and universalism since you now deny that God knows the future (because the future does not yet exist and God can't know what doesn't yet exist), then, how can God- who doesn't know the future--tell you that there will be some people who eternally reject God? According to you, not even God knows that! For, any person in "hell," unless he is extinguished and ceases to exist, may turn again to God and pray for mercy and help. And, we both agree, that if he does so, God would grant him mercy and help. If God doesn't know the future, as you now allege, how would he not know that Hitler will never turn and repent? And, if God doesn't know the future, that would make the Bible misleading, which is your objection to my view that God will save all eventually or that all will be eventually saved or that all have been saved.

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03-18-2005, 01:46 PM	#41
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Mark 13:21 - And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not" Are you sure you have the right passage And Mark 14:21 still doesn't necessarily imply that he will burn in hell. In fact, when taken in context of the whole book, that doesn't appear to be the case at all.

03-21-2005, 07:55 AM	#44
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	An interesting article on this subject is "The River of Fire" by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros. In it he presents a middle ground of sorts. Heaven and Hell were not considered to be two different places, but rather two different ways of experiencing the same place. We are all saved from death (universalist) and given eternal life. Some will experience the next life as heaven, others as hell, but the same external circumstances will be experienced by all.

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