Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 09-12-2003, 09:19 PM

Universalism is "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved." The idea behind universalism is that eternal damnation may be real only as a possibility, but not necessarily an actuality in the face of the will of God and the actual repentance of human beings.

"Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live?" (Ezekiel 18:23, all quotes from the NAB)

"The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard 'delay,' but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

If it is the desire of God that all should come to repentance, who is to say that the will of the Almighty should necessarily be frustrated?

Indeed, there are several biblical verses that indicate that God's plan for salvation of mankind will work.

"For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32)

"For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself." (John 12:32)

A reference such as Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," clearly indicates that the primary dynamic in the bible is not between Christians and non-Christians, but between God and His people, which through Christ extends to all mankind.

This is not to say that one can't find verses that support a sectarian view of salvation. There is, of course, the deadpan serious scribe Matthew, who warns that many are on the broad road to destruction but few enter the narrow gate to life (Matthew 7:13-14). Yet even Matthew doesn't suggest that being Christian is synonomous with being saved. There is this famous passage that suggests that one can serve the Son of Man unawares.

25:31-46. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This fleshes out the meaning of the saying, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27)

Yet neither Matthew nor James have universalistic tendencies, which is the subject of this post. There is one New Testament writer, however, who is consistent in believing in the salvation of all man. That person is the Pastoralist.

Titus 2:11. "For the grace of God has appeared, saving all..."

1 Timothy 2:3-4. "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 4:10. "For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe." (μάλιστα πιστῶν)

This word, translated "especially" or "particularly," is found elsewhere in the New Testament. When juxtaposed with the word "all," it consistently means that the mentioned special subgroup is not the whole.

"But I have nothing definite to write about him to our sovereign; therefore I have brought him before all of you, and particularly before you, King Agrippa, so that I may have something to write about as a result of this investigation." (Acts 25:26)

"So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith." (Galatians 6:10)

"All the holy ones send you their greetings, especially those of Caesar's household." (Philippians 4:22)

"And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." (1 Timothy 5:8)

In conclusion, the doctrine of universalism, that all mankind may be saved by the grace of God, has as much biblical basis as the idea that billions and billions of non-Christians will be damned for eternity.

best,
Peter Kirby

09-13-2003, 04:32 AM

An excellent article Peter and most welcome. May I use your quotes as the basis for something on my website. I have been grappling with this issue and the problem of hell and your discussion is a useful addition to this. What do you make of Origen's take on this?

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Peter Kirby · 09-13-2003, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
An excellent article Peter and most welcome. May I use your quotes as the basis for something on my website.

Yes, take whatever you might find useful.

Quote:

I have been grappling with this issue and the problem of hell and your discussion is a useful addition to this. What do you make of Origen's take on this?

There is a decent discussion of Origen here.

Quote:

Universalism. Origen believed that in the end everyone would be saved. His view is explicitly universalistic:

So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" (Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3).

According to Origen, this saving knowledge would come "slowly and gradually, seeing that the process of amendment and correction will take place imperceptibly in the individual instances during the lapse of countless and unmeasured ages, some outstripping others, and tending by a swifter course towards perfection, while others again follow close at hand, and some again a long way behind." Thus, "through the numerous and uncounted orders of progressive being who are being reconciled to God from a state of enmity, the last enemy is finally reached, who is called death, so that he also may be destroyed, and no longer be an enemy. When, therefore, all rational souls shall have been restored to a condition of this kind, then the nature of this body of ours will undergo a change into the glory of a spiritual body" (De Prinicipiis, 3.6.6).

The Bible Texts. Some of Origen's arguments for universalism are based on biblical texts and others on philosophical speculation.

In the context of God's love in Christ, Origen looked to passages that spoke of God conquering and subduing his enemies. He drew on those passages which quoted Psalm 110:1, especially 1 Corinthians 15:25: "The Lord said to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet' For he must reign until he has put all hid enemies under his feet" (De Prinicipiis, 1.6.1).

The End Like the Beginning. Origen reasoned from the neoplatonic premise that "the end is always like the beginning: and, therefore, as there in one end to all things, so ought we understand that there was one beginning; and as there is one end to many things, so there spring from one beginning many differences and varieties, which again, through the goodness of God, and by subjection to Christ, and through the unity of the Holy Spirit, are called to one end, which is like onto the beginning" (De Prinicipiis, 1.6.2).

Reformatory Justice. Origen rejected a penal view of justice, arguing that "The fury of God's vengeance is profitable for the purgation of souls. That the punishment, also, which is said to be applied by fire, is understood to be applied with the object of healing" (De Prinicipiis, 2.10.6). He added, "those who have been removed from their primal state of blessedness have not been removed irrecoverably, but have been placed under the rule of those holy and blessed orders which we have described; and by availing themselves of the aid of these, and being remolded by salutary principals and discipline, they may recover themselves, and be restored to their condition of happiness" (De Prinicipiis, 1.6.2).

God's Wisdom. Origen insisted that: "God, by the ineffable skill of his wisdom, transforming and restoring all things, in whatever manor they are made, to some useful aim, and to the common advantage of all, recalls those very creatures which differed so much from each other in mental conformation to one agreement of labour and purpose; so that, although they are under one influence of different motives, they nevertheless complete the fullness and perfection of one world, and the very variety of minds tends to one end of perfection." For "it is one power which grasps and holds together all the diversity of the world, and leads the different movements towards one work, lest so immense an undertaking as that of the world should be dissolved by the dissensions of souls." And "for this reason we think that God, the Father of all things, in order to ensure the salvation of all his creatures through the ineffable plan of his word and wisdom, so arranged each of these, that every spirit, whether soul or rational existence, however called, should not be compelled by force, against the liberty of his own will, to any other course than that to which the motives of his own mind led him (lest by so doing the power of exercising free-will should seem to be taken away, which certainly would produce a change in the nature of the being itself)" (De Prinicipiis, 2.1.2).

God's Omnipotence. "For nothing is impossible to the Omnipotent, nor is anything incapable of restoration to its Creator" (De Prinicipiis, 3.6.5). This, of course, implies that God desires by his goodness to do so (1 Timothy 2:1; 2 Peter 3:9). But if God wants to save all, and he can save all (i.e., he is all-powerful), then for Origen it would seem to follow that he will save all.

The most relevant passage in Origen is on ccel.org's page.

Perhaps Dante should have read Origen on Judas.

Quote:

In the next place, that He was betrayed by those whom He called His disciples, is a circumstance which the Jew of Celsus learned from the Gospels; calling the one Judas, however, "many disciples," that he might seem to add force to the accusation. Nor did he trouble himself to take note of all that is related concerning Judas; how this Judas, having come to entertain opposite and conflicting opinions regarding his Master neither opposed Him with his whole soul, nor yet with his whole soul preserved the respect due by a pupil to his teacher. For be that betrayed Him gave to the multitude that came to apprehend Jesus, a sign, saying, "Whomsoever I shall kiss, it is he; seize ye him,"-retaining still some element of respect for his Master: for unless he had done so, he would have betrayed Him, even publicly, without any pretence of affection. This circumstance, therefore, will satisfy all with regard to the purpose of Judas, that along with his covetous disposition, and his wicked design to betray his Master, he had still a feeling of a mixed character in his mind, produced in him by the words of Jesus, which had the appearance (so to speak) of some remnant of good. For it is related that, "when Judas, who betrayed Him, knew that He was condemned, he repented, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the high priest and elders, saying, I have sinned, in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. But they said, What is that to us? see thou to that; " -and that, having thrown the money down in the temple, he departed, and went and hanged himself. But if this covetous Judas, who also stole the money placed in the bag for the relief of the poor, repented, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, it is clear that the instructions of Jesus had been able to produce some feeling of repentance in his mind, and were not altogether despised and loathed by this traitor. Nay, the declaration, "I have sinned, in that I have betrayed the innocent blood," was a public acknowledgment of his crime. Observe, also, how exceedingly passionate was the sorrow for his sins that proceeded from that repentance, and which would not suffer him any longer to live; and how, after he had cast the money down in the temple, he withdrew, and went away and hanged himself: for he passed sentence upon himself, showing what a power the teaching of Jesus had over this sinner Judas, this thief and traitor, who could not always treat with contempt what he had learned from Jesus.

There are many universalist essays here and some anti-universalist stuff here.

I should make it clear that I think that actual eternal damnation is also biblical. The bible is not a treatise in systematic theology.

best,
Peter Kirby

09-13-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Universalism is "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved."
Peter Kirby

Hello Peter, that would sure fit well with both "the hot and the cold" being OK but not the lukewarm of Rev. 3:15.

The fact is that all are created in the image of God and it is only our humanity that keeps us away from God and this is true for believers as well as for unbelievers. Since our humanity is only a condition of being wherein we pretend to be somebody other than the animal man after who's image we were created, all of us will have to part from this illusory identity before we die and therefore salvation will be just as universal to mankind as the existence of our humanity that created the fall within each of us.

The only exeption here are the saved sinners who have attached the concept of salvation to their humanity and will not be able to let go of this until they die both the first and the second death at the same time. Hebrews 9:16 is good in this: "Where there is a testament it is necessary that the death of the testator be confirmed. For a testament comes into force only in the case of death; it has no force while the testator is alive." So clearly, unless one dies the first death (wherein we die to our sin nature) prior to our second death there is no salvation but only the added burden of a purified sin nature that we must cling to untill we finally die as man.

Nomad · 09-18-2003, 10:00 AM

Hello Peter, and thank you for your post.

You are correct, of course, that Universalists can find a great deal of support in Scripture for their belief, and Origin was not alone in his arguing for the salvation of all. Clement of Alexandria, and especially St. Gregory of Nyssa were Universalists.

Speaking personally, I have struggled for a long time with the Doctrines of Hell, and found a tremendous book on the subject that I would strongly recommend to everyone interested in this topic, whatever view they may hold on the matter right now. It is called Dare We Hope "That All Men Be Saved"?: With a Short Discourse on Hell by Hans Urs Von Balthasar, and it has helped to shape and clarify my own views on the subject. I learned of it when reading Death on a Friday Afternoon by one of Balthasar's chief disciples (not to mention one of my favorite authors), Richard John Neuhaus. The latter book touches more briefly on the topic, but Balthasar covers it in great depth, and is highly readible as well. His conclusion is that while we cannot be certain that all will be saved, but we can certainly hope that this will happen. The evidence from Scripture that God will redeem all of His creation is certainly very good.

To paraphrase Neuhaus, one must wonder if those who would reject God's salvation will be given the last word in the matter.

Peace,

Nomad

gregor · 09-18-2003, 11:33 AM

The least Universalist passage may well be in 2 Thess 2:

"8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Not only is God going to destroy the unrighteous, he WANTS to do it, so he send a delusion to them. So not only is he mean, arrogant, and insecure, he stacks the deck so that people cannot find the truth.

(In reality, I suspect this may be a shot across the bows of someone at the Jerusalem Church performing signs and wonders and dissin' Paul).

zaitzeff · 03-16-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor

The least Universalist passage may well be in 2 Thess 2:

"8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Not only is God going to destroy the unrighteous, he WANTS to do it, so he send a delusion to them. So not only is he mean, arrogant, and insecure, he stacks the deck so that people cannot find the truth.

(In reality, I suspect this may be a shot across the bows of someone at the Jerusalem Church performing signs and wonders and dissin' Paul).

scholars strongly suspect that Paul did not write II Thess. Paul himself seems to favor universalism as in I Cor 15:24-28.

Jehanne · 03-16-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Universalism is "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved." The idea behind universalism is that eternal damnation may be real only as a possibility, but not necessarily an actuality in the face of the will of God and the actual repentance of human beings.

http://www.myfortress.org/JudasIscariot.html

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said," Matthew 26:24-25.

I am an atheist, by the way!

Peter Kirby · 03-16-2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

http://www.myfortress.org/JudasIscariot.html

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said," Matthew 26:24-25.

I am an atheist, by the way!

This expression of condemnation of Judas is found in Matthew, not the other three gospels, for what that is worth. The rest of the verses cited on the webpage don't establish what the author wants (which is why the author keeps coming back to Matthew 26:24). Anyhow, it says that it would be good for Judas not to have been born, not that it would have better than him being born: his life as the betrayer of Jesus is a bad one, but that is not to say that it is so bad as that he will suffer eternal damnation.

In any case, to repeat what was said above, "I should make it clear that I think that actual eternal damnation is also biblical. The bible is not a treatise in systematic theology."

best,
Peter Kirby

Chris Weimer · 03-16-2005, 06:12 PM

Outside of the gospels and revelation, you won't find any hint of eternal damnation for humans. The Petrine epistles make it clear that it is the angels that will suffer hell, not humans.

The Gospels hint of eternal damnation draw largely from Isaiah and Jeremiah, often quoting it verbatim. Since Isaiah and Jeremaiah were being figurative, why not suppose that Jesus was also? Is there an eternal worm? Doubt it. What about Revelation? Well, those who hold the views that Revelation was an end-times document don't really have a good grasp on apocalyptic literature or historical allusions that are plentiful in the writing. All in all, there is no hell.

09-12-2003, 09:19 PM	#1
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Universalism is biblical Universalism is "a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved." The idea behind universalism is that eternal damnation may be real only as a possibility, but not necessarily an actuality in the face of the will of God and the actual repentance of human beings. "Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live?" (Ezekiel 18:23, all quotes from the NAB) "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard 'delay,' but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) If it is the desire of God that all should come to repentance, who is to say that the will of the Almighty should necessarily be frustrated? Indeed, there are several biblical verses that indicate that God's plan for salvation of mankind will work. "For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32) "For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life." (1 Corinthians 15:22) "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself." (John 12:32) A reference such as Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," clearly indicates that the primary dynamic in the bible is not between Christians and non-Christians, but between God and His people, which through Christ extends to all mankind. This is not to say that one can't find verses that support a sectarian view of salvation. There is, of course, the deadpan serious scribe Matthew, who warns that many are on the broad road to destruction but few enter the narrow gate to life (Matthew 7:13-14). Yet even Matthew doesn't suggest that being Christian is synonomous with being saved. There is this famous passage that suggests that one can serve the Son of Man unawares. 25:31-46. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." This fleshes out the meaning of the saying, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27) Yet neither Matthew nor James have universalistic tendencies, which is the subject of this post. There is one New Testament writer, however, who is consistent in believing in the salvation of all man. That person is the Pastoralist. Titus 2:11. "For the grace of God has appeared, saving all..." 1 Timothy 2:3-4. "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 4:10. "For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe." (μάλιστα πιστῶν) This word, translated "especially" or "particularly," is found elsewhere in the New Testament. When juxtaposed with the word "all," it consistently means that the mentioned special subgroup is not the whole. "But I have nothing definite to write about him to our sovereign; therefore I have brought him before all of you, and particularly before you, King Agrippa, so that I may have something to write about as a result of this investigation." (Acts 25:26) "So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith." (Galatians 6:10) "All the holy ones send you their greetings, especially those of Caesar's household." (Philippians 4:22) "And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." (1 Timothy 5:8) In conclusion, the doctrine of universalism, that all mankind may be saved by the grace of God, has as much biblical basis as the idea that billions and billions of non-Christians will be damned for eternity. best, Peter Kirby

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09-13-2003, 04:32 AM	#2
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	An excellent article Peter and most welcome. May I use your quotes as the basis for something on my website. I have been grappling with this issue and the problem of hell and your discussion is a useful addition to this. What do you make of Origen's take on this? Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

09-18-2003, 10:00 AM	#5
Nomad Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada Posts: 410	Hello Peter, and thank you for your post. You are correct, of course, that Universalists can find a great deal of support in Scripture for their belief, and Origin was not alone in his arguing for the salvation of all. Clement of Alexandria, and especially St. Gregory of Nyssa were Universalists. Speaking personally, I have struggled for a long time with the Doctrines of Hell, and found a tremendous book on the subject that I would strongly recommend to everyone interested in this topic, whatever view they may hold on the matter right now. It is called Dare We Hope "That All Men Be Saved"?: With a Short Discourse on Hell by Hans Urs Von Balthasar, and it has helped to shape and clarify my own views on the subject. I learned of it when reading Death on a Friday Afternoon by one of Balthasar's chief disciples (not to mention one of my favorite authors), Richard John Neuhaus. The latter book touches more briefly on the topic, but Balthasar covers it in great depth, and is highly readible as well. His conclusion is that while we cannot be certain that all will be saved, but we can certainly hope that this will happen. The evidence from Scripture that God will redeem all of His creation is certainly very good. To paraphrase Neuhaus, one must wonder if those who would reject God's salvation will be given the last word in the matter. Peace, Nomad

09-18-2003, 11:33 AM	#6
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	The least Universalist passage may well be in 2 Thess 2: "8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Not only is God going to destroy the unrighteous, he WANTS to do it, so he send a delusion to them. So not only is he mean, arrogant, and insecure, he stacks the deck so that people cannot find the truth. (In reality, I suspect this may be a shot across the bows of someone at the Jerusalem Church performing signs and wonders and dissin' Paul).

03-16-2005, 06:12 PM	#10
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Outside of the gospels and revelation, you won't find any hint of eternal damnation for humans. The Petrine epistles make it clear that it is the angels that will suffer hell, not humans. The Gospels hint of eternal damnation draw largely from Isaiah and Jeremiah, often quoting it verbatim. Since Isaiah and Jeremaiah were being figurative, why not suppose that Jesus was also? Is there an eternal worm? Doubt it. What about Revelation? Well, those who hold the views that Revelation was an end-times document don't really have a good grasp on apocalyptic literature or historical allusions that are plentiful in the writing. All in all, there is no hell.

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