Freethought & Rationalism Archive

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 04:05 AM

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele. In a political context he was accuratly predicting the final destruction of the Jewish state, not the world/Earth.

If the Jews did not return to the old ways, their Jewish 'world' would be destroyed. Perfectly in line with the historical Jewish prophets who generaly did not fare well when lecturing the Jewish establishment of their individual times on the errors of their ways, as with JC.

aa5874 · 02-20-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele. In a political context he was accuratly predicting the final destruction of the Jewish state, not the world/Earth.

If the Jews did not return to the old ways, their Jewish 'world' would be destroyed. Perfectly in line with the historical Jewish prophets who generaly did not fare well when lecturing the Jewish establishment of their individual times on the errors of their ways, as with JC.

NO.

The so-called predictions of Jesus can be found in Hebrew Scripture. Whether or not there was an actual Jesus Christ character in no way affected what was already written in the books of the prophets.

The authors of the Jesus stories even made it clear that their Jesus story was lifted out of the Septuagint or some similar source by displaying many instances of word for word copying of passages in the Septuagint or some similar source.

The Jesus Christ character is a product of supposedly fulfilled prophecies.

The origin of Jesus is based on Isaiah 7.14.

The role of John the Baptist, preparing the way for Jesus Christ, is based on Malachi 3.1 and Isaiah 40.3.

It is almost certain then that without the Septuagint or some similar source there would have been no Jesus character.

Every aspect of the Jesus character was lifted from the Septuagint.

1. His origin and conception is from Isaiah 7.14.

2. His place of birth, Bethlehem, is from Micah 5.2

3. The seeking of Jesus by the Magi is based on Jeremiah 23.5.

4. The fleeing of the baby Jesus to Egypt is based on Hosea 11.1.

5. The killing of the innocent is from Jeremiah 31.5

6. The reception of the Holy Ghost after the baptism is based on Isaiah 42 or Psalms 2.

7. The temptation of Jesus is based on Psalms 91.11 and Deuteronomy 6.13-16.

8. The Sermon on the Mount is based on Isaiah 61.2, Psalms 37.11, and 2 Samuel 22.26.

9. The miraculous healing of many by Jesus is based on Isaiah 53.4.

10. The triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem is based on Zechariah 9.9. and Isaiah 62.11.

11. The rejection of Jesus is based on Psalms 118.22, Isaiah 28.16, and Jeremiah 22.5.

12. The shedding of the blood of Jesus is based on Exodus 24.8.

13. The trial and crucifixion of Jesus is based on Psalms 31.13, Zechariah 11. 12-13, Isaiah 53.7, Isaiah 50.6, Joshua 2.19, Psalms 22, Psalms 109 and Psalms 69.21.

14. The burial place of Jesus is based on Isaiah 53.9

15. The resurrection of Jesus is based on Jonah 1.17.

There was no need for an actual Jesus at all. Jesus Christ was almost totally fabricated from the Septuagint or some similar source.

ApostateAbe · 02-20-2010, 09:30 AM

Here is the complete passage of Mark 13, containing the primary apocalyptic prophecies. I bolded the portions that make me think Jesus was talking about worldwide apocalypticism, not just local.

1 As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 “But in those days, following that distress,

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

25 the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

26 “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”

Toto · 02-20-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele. In a political context he was accuratly predicting the final destruction of the Jewish state, not the world/Earth.

If the Jews did not return to the old ways, their Jewish 'world' would be destroyed. Perfectly in line with the historical Jewish prophets who generaly did not fare well when lecturing the Jewish establishment of their individual times on the errors of their ways, as with JC.

Doesn't it seem more probable that the Jesus character was invented after the destruction of the Temple to make sense of it? That's how most prophecies work.

aa5874 · 02-20-2010, 10:16 AM

The words of Jesus appear to have been lifted from Isaiah 13.9-10 and Joel 2.10. The so-called prophecies of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth appear to have been known for hundreds of years before.

This is found in a book under the name of Isaiah assumed to be written hundreds of years before the supposed Jesus.

Isaiah 13.9-11

Quote:

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11And I will punish the WORLD for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

And this is found in Joel 2.1-2& 10

Quote:

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong, there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations..........

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining...

There was no need for an actual Jesus. The Septuagint or some similar source had those very apocalyptic words for hundreds of years before the Jesus story were written.

Jayhawker Soule · 02-20-2010, 10:21 AM

The ability of the Gospel writers to predict the past continues to inspire ...

Loomis · 02-20-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele.

No.

Get a load of John 10:34.

Quote:

Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Jesus called it their law.
It wasn’t a law at all. It was a poem. Psalm 82.

Loomis · 02-20-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai.

But why stop there?

Why look at JC as a Jewish rabai? :shrug:

Doesn’t JC also make perfect sense if you look at him as one of the ancient anthólops attested to by Eustathius of Antioch circa 320 AD?

“Είμαι η αρχική Ιησού Χριστού. Αλλά το κακό άνδρες έχουν διαστρεβλώσει την ιστορία μου.”

steve_bnk · 02-20-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai.

But why stop there?

Why look at JC as a Jewish rabai? :shrug:

Doesn’t JC also make perfect sense if you look at him as one of the ancient anthólops attested to by Eustathius of Antioch circa 320 AD?

“Είμαι η αρχική Ιησού Χριστού. Αλλά το κακό άνδρες έχουν διαστρεβλώσει την ιστορία μου.”

Yadda Yadda Yadda.

DCHindley · 02-20-2010, 01:10 PM

Than why can't the doctrine that Jesus was really a divine reedemer sent by God to save faithful mankind be invented after the destruction of the temple to make sense of it? "If Jesus wasn't the expected messiah, then what was he? Ooohhhhh...so THAT's what the ancient prophesies really meant!"

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele. In a political context he was accuratly predicting the final destruction of the Jewish state, not the world/Earth.

If the Jews did not return to the old ways, their Jewish 'world' would be destroyed. Perfectly in line with the historical Jewish prophets who generaly did not fare well when lecturing the Jewish establishment of their individual times on the errors of their ways, as with JC.

Doesn't it seem more probable that the Jesus character was invented after the destruction of the Temple to make sense of it? That's how most prophecies work.

02-20-2010, 04:05 AM	#1
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	A Political Jesus Christ A possible historical figure makes perfect sense if you look at JC as the Jewish rabai he would have been, talking to the Jews and no one ele. In a political context he was accuratly predicting the final destruction of the Jewish state, not the world/Earth. If the Jews did not return to the old ways, their Jewish 'world' would be destroyed. Perfectly in line with the historical Jewish prophets who generaly did not fare well when lecturing the Jewish establishment of their individual times on the errors of their ways, as with JC.

02-20-2010, 09:30 AM	#3
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Here is the complete passage of Mark 13, containing the primary apocalyptic prophecies. I bolded the portions that make me think Jesus was talking about worldwide apocalypticism, not just local. 1 As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!” 2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?” 5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. 24 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. 28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown 32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. 35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”

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02-20-2010, 10:21 AM	#6
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	The ability of the Gospel writers to predict the past continues to inspire ...

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