Gamut

Hmmm...just thought of something else.

Does anyone believe that plagues are caused by sin?

This is plain superstition written by people who didn't understand bacteria and viruses.

And this is supposed to be God talking?

So, I suggest that everyone who believes this passage should also believe that sicknesses are punishments from God and have nothing to do with micoorganisms.

BadBadBad

More importantly, the Bible gives a simple cure to plagues. Christians should just be zealous enough for their God to spear a few sinners through the belly for him. That'll stop the worst of plagues in a second.

25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

badger3k

I agree - archaeological evidence is against most, if not all, of these stories having anything more than a small basis in fact. IIRC, several of the groups mentioned in the early books didn't exist until the 7th or 8th century BCE.
Well, I agree that they may have been considered necessary by the people of one side. But those are human, subjective value judgements. Christians claim that there are moral absolutes, things that were "set in stone" (so to speak) by their god and cannot change. Is killing someone bad? Is it an absolute? If it is an absolute, then there is NO instance when killing is not bad. So, yes, warfare is contrary to an absolute moral value that says killing is bad. It contradicts it.

My own position is entirely subjective. Our values are culturally derived from many sources (and some may have genetic basis). In the past, killing your enemies was regarded as just, maybe even holy. These days, it depends on who does the killing.

If you want to claim that there is some absolute, objective morality, then you have to judge the actions of everyone, from every time, with the same standard. There is no other choice by hypocrisy. Morality is supposed to override such "earthly" concerns such as politics, nationalism, racism, etc.

That's my point, on that issue at least. Is that clearer?

John A. Broussard

It's even more than a question of absolute, objective morality.

The bible is held up to us as something we should admire, honor and emulate. And yet genocide is not only allowed by the god of the bible, but actually encouraged there in its most horrendous form.

That most bible thumpers condemn genocide in this modern world, while virtually worshippomg this book, is the vilest form of hypocrisy.

Bob K

Are babies innocent individuals?

Are we talking inre orders from gods or directives of men?

If Moses existed (and there are Jewish archaeologists who believe that there is no archaeological evidence, physical evidence, to justify the claim that upwards of 3 milliion humans, 600K warriors and their support groups, wandered in the desert for forty years), and issued the directive to kill innocent babies, then Moses was a babykiller regardless of justification, such as acting under orders from the Yahweh; if Yahweh issued the orders to kill innocent babies, then Yahweh is a babykiller.

Either way, inre issuing orders/directives to kill innocent babies, someone, or something, is a viscious monster whom rational humans would kill and thereby get rid of if they could.

Defending the killing of innocent babies is defending the indefensible.

Wallener

I take it you don't celebrate Veteran's Day...

Modern western civilization is based on the ongoing killing of children all over the planet. If you actually believe the above statement, why are you not in Scotland trying to disrupt the G8 meeting with your best Braveheart imitation?

"Innocent" is a meaningless concept unless you are going to insist on an absolute objective morality - in which case you're going to have a heck of a time explaining the extreme prevalence of infanticide practiced by our biological relations in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Avatar

Yes, war was an act of brutality and barbarism, and extermination of a tribe of people was almost normal.

But isn't God supposed to be the good guy? Isn't he supposed to be above that with his "superior morality" and infinite power? Surely he was above genocide as a tactic.

Any way you cut it, if you believe these incedants happened then Biblegod has blood on his hands...and I fail to see why I or anyone should worship such a being.

Wallener

I take it you don't celebrate Veterans' Day, either?

Avatar

Know any veterans that actively tried to commit or ordered the total genocide of an entire people? And demanded to be worshipped and loved for being a loving person? And claimed to be the Absolute Moral Authority? The Highest Good?

No?

Bob K

The moderators will not permit me to describe in the manner of my choosing the contempt I have for you and others who think as you do.

When war was forced upon this nation by our enemies, I could never condemn as you have the efforts of American servicemen who did what had to be done to win the war and thereby defend our nation and our people.

Your comments are unproductive and further communicaiton with you is useless/non-productive.