Sheshbazzar

No John, they most certainly would not have looked at themselves as Jews, or considered themselves Jews.
The regulations of operating Judaism would not have permitted it. There were some pretty sharp lines drawn (Still are among the Khsedeem 'Hasidic' Orthodox Jews)
The God-fearers, the yir'ei Hashem 'fearers of The Name' or chasid umot ha'olam 'Pious Among the Nations' that visited the Temple and synagogues would have been made well aware of their status, and of those restrictions and liberties that were provided by the Law and unique to their particular siuation.

All gentile believers who would worship with the Jews were regarded as ger toshavim, that is to say as 'strangers within the gate' or 'resident aliens'.
They were not circumsised (or if they had been circumcised as a foreign cultural practice, that circumcision was disregarded as invalid not having been performed by a recognized beit din in strict accordance with Jewish laws.)

Such a ger toshavim gentile could enjoy limited participation in Jewish life and religious observances for as long as desired, even for life.
But was not allowed to wear identifiably Jewish clothing, and would never be mistaken for, or recognised as a Jew.
Required observance of the precepts of The Law was quite limited for such, limited to The Seven Noachide Laws' and the blessing of resting from labor upon the Jews Sabbath days.

Ger toshav gentiles, as uncircumcised were forbidden to eat of the Passover seder. (Ex 12:48)

If one wished full and equal participation in Jewish religious life, it was (and is) required to come before a recognised Beit Din for examination, and to apply for acceptance for circumcision.
(not always granted, it being a very serious decision with totally life changing obligations and consequences. Orthodox Judaism strongly discourages any such conversions.)

But if a gentile manages to meet the test, upon a legally performed circumcision, that one becomes a ger tzedik or a 'rightous stranger' that is a gentile who through proper and recognised conversion has became a 'Jew', with all the obligations and rights held by anyone born Jewish, his decendents are then Jewish by default.

There is much more that could be said, but the point is that no gentile of that time having any actual social relations with Jewish society, could have ever mistaken himself for a Jew, or easily got away with passing for a Jew.

Want to try it, try passing yourself off as an Ultra Orthodox Hasidic Jew. I don't reccomend you try it, and you certainly wouldn't want to be caught trying it.

One can be 'Jewish' and follow almost NO laws of Judaism. One does not have to be a practicing Jew to be Jewish.
If one is born to a Jewish family they are Jewish by default. Paul was born Jewish (if he ever existed), as was Josephus.
Religious degeneracy, 'falling away' or apostacy does not remove a Jews Jewish status.


I am a Hebrew, and was circumcised as an infant. But I am not Jewish. If I desired to be Jewish I would need to find a Beit Din that would circumcise me again.
Upon questioning me, none would. But that presents no problem as I certainly would never seek to be a Jew.

Duvduv

Sheshbazzar, how do you interpret your being a "Hebrew" without being a Jew? Do you mean that your mother was not Jewish but your family followed Torah principles? As a Ben Noach you would not have to be circumcised.

Sheshbazzar

My family is gentile, like millions of my generation I was routinely circumcised by a doctor (or nurse) in the hospital as a 'health' measure.

My title Hebrew came by me in the same way as Abraham the Hebrew's did. A Chaldean of Ur and a goy by birth, he became known as a 'Hebrew' by his actions, in that he left his native life and religions and 'crossed over' to the 'other side' (The term 'Hebrew' derives from the word to 'pass over' or 'from the other side')

I did not at the first call myself a 'Hebrew', rather others knowing I was devout yet not Christian, nor Jewish, for lack of a better term, often in mockery, yet sometimes in respect, applied the title 'The Hebrew' to me for many years before I finally embraced it.
There were many of my co-workers who never knew, or could identify me by any other name. To this day to them I remain 'The Hebrew'.

There were Hebrews long before there were anything called 'Jews' or a religion called 'Judaism'. One has never needed to be Jewish to be a Hebrew.

I take as my rightfully adopted cultural heritage an identity with the ancient people called 'Hebrew', of whom the Jews were descendent's. I do not accept latter Judaism or its Torah as defining my personal beliefs, although I am extremely familiar with the contents.

outhouse

Your really making my point. Jews would not call these people Jews. Nor would I. The question really is, did they falsely make that claim. You take Paul, his Judaism has always been in question, yet he claims he is a Jew of Jews. Josephas Judaism is another who's claim should be in question. We know Jews viewed him as a traitor, I think he had always played both sides of the fence. His Roman status isnt really in question.



Ill make a claim here and I dont know how much weight it holds, but here goes.

Hellenistic Judaism was very wide and diverse with many sects and subsects, the Saducees practiced a form of Judaism that would not be acceptable in any way today by any means, but claimed themselves as Jews.

You had Hellenistic Gentile cities like Sepphoris that had a synagogue for God-fearers. In this time of diversity I dont see why Gentile/Roman's worshipping Judaism for generations would not "generally" call themsleves Jews.


What do you really think of Paul, do you think he was a Jew or a God-fearer? What does his epistles state? First chance he had, he took his message straight to God-fearers. Not because they were the only ones who would lissten, but they were "his people"

Duvduv

It has long sounded to me that you ARE extremely familiar, and would be more than comfortable joining the club, so to speak.

Sheshbazzar

By the testimony he gives regarding the circumstances of his birth he was a Jew. If so there was nothing that he could have done (or left undone) that could ever change that fact.
His understanding of the practice of the religion of Judaisim might be under question, but that has no affect on his status as being a Jew.

He could have renounced God and proclaimed himself an Atheist, screwed every whore Ephesus, and he would still have been a Jew.

Neither is his Jewish status. He was born to Jewish parents he is de-facto Jewish. Nothing he could ever say or do could ever change that.

Being Jewish isn't a matter of religion, or of patriotisim, or of choice to one born Jewish, they are 'Jewish' irregardless. Many Jews are Atheists.


If they were born to Jewish mothers they were Jewish. Simple as that. They remained Jewish to the grave -regardless of what they believed or didn't believe.

I have already explained that. It simply wouldn't fly. If they were worshipping Judaism they were worshipping the wrong god.

What is reported of Paul is that he was a Jew. The term 'God-fearer' was reserved for non-Jewish gentile believers.
Paul if he was at all as he is described in the NT, he was a JEW and not a gentile 'God-fearer'

He believed he had a 'mission to the Gentiles' that fact did not transform him into a non-Jew. NOTHING could.

.

outhouse

Are you saying Pauls Judaism isnt in question?

mountainman

Also Bernard re: "Gentiles" there is an old thread ....

Who were the "heathens" of the NT? - And to what extent were they the Greeks?

outhouse

I found a few tidbits from you in there I liked. Toto's post follow more a long the lines I do. despite my obvious differences.


Pauls Judaism is in question, how could he be born a jew if he was circumsized when he started his apostleship? To me that is evidence he cut himself to be more like the Jesus charactor and to back his claims of being a Jew of jews. Paul talks out both sides of his face so its hard to read to deeply.




After researching this tonight I will stand by my earlier statement

Its a highly understudied area of the NT.


And after reading a few different scholars, they say the same thing. Multicultural and very very diverse judaism for about a 400 year period. And understudied.

Sheshbazzar

There is a distinction between being a Jew, which normally is a fact of ones birth and is an unchangeable condition.
and the practice of the religion of 'Judaism' which is what one believes and does.

One can be Jewish (by birth) and not believe or engage in any of the religious practices of the Jewish religion. One is still Jewish.
The original Paul was Jewish through and through, and remained so his entire life.
(but the latter church inserted a LOT of pagan Greek derived theology into his writings, and fraudulently composed entire books in his name.)

'Paul' according to the NT was a practicing 'Pharisee', which was only one branch of a very diverse set of 'Jewish' beliefs and 'Jewish' practices.
When he adopted fundamentalist Jewish messianisim, or as is now commonly known as 'Christianity' (Antioch c 43 CE -thousands of these Messianic Jews would have lived out their lives without so much as even heard of the word 'Christian'. The word is nowhere to be found in the Gospels)
_Paul was still a Jew and a devout practitioner of a form of the Jewish religion, As he was for the remainder of his life.

All 'Paul' was practicing during his lifetime was a somewhat unconventional form of messianic Judaism, one that upset those Jews who clung to Judaisms more 'traditional' interpretations and practices.
There is no evidence that Paul ever set out with any intent to establish any new religion, only a new interpretation and extension of the existing Jewish faith, opening up acceptance and access to gentiles. Which many of his fellow Jews living among the gentiles also favored.

Latter ignorant and fanatical gentile dominated 'catholicism' is what severed the former connections, and ultimately criminalized the practices and beliefs of the Yahshua the Messiah/Jesus the Christ believing Jews.
They were no longer permitted to believe in Yahshua the Messiah, and live in accordance with their own conscience regarding Jewish laws. (which thing Paul permitted)
To do so was now in violation of gentile Catholic Christian issued edicts, decrees, and laws, and could bring on the spot execution for the crime of heresy.
Countless thousands were executed without trial, those that were tried were executed anyway, unless they agreed to everything these religious murderers dictated.

A corrupt religion called 'Christianity' arose and murdered off all that would not knuckle under to its despotic decrees. That religion that John of Revelations termed as being BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH... drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

So it stands until the innocent blood of the saints that the religion of 'Christianity' and Rome murdered is avenged.