Jim Larmore

I realize in a controversial format such as this that the job and passion of the opposing side is to invalidate, intimidate, obfuscate and bloviate the situation so that the one being attacked is reduced to a pitiful pile of tortuous protoplasm. That seems to be the goal here on the iidb. It doesn't really bother me that this happens here except for one thing. It gets in the way of discovery. Sure I may not have had the exact facts right on the history but it was generally the way it happened. The 10 barbaric tribes became the 10 countries I mentioned, the main power that distroyed the three extinct power was the papal power. The pope that was crowned in 538 was the first monachal pope that enforced the tenets of the church and the 30 to 50 million killed afterwards is testament to these enforcements. The papacy was abolished in 1798 right on time for the prophecy in Daniel. The dates and the prophecies line up. The truth is the truth. Jesus historically started His ministry in 27 A.D. or 483 years after the decree from Artaxerxes to re-build Jerusalem, right on time for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

A day for a year is rock solid to all well versed Biblical scholars that are not Bible critics .The way I see it the only reason critics won't accept it is because it works to verify Biblical prophecy and they can't have that.

The papal power is no doubt the little horn power spoken of in Daniel 7 and the Beast in Rev 13. The times given were repeated over and over again for clarification and verification.

I believe Daniel and Revelation are companion books of the Bible that show similar or in some cases the same prophecys. I believe the little book in the angel's hand in Rev 10 is symbolic of the book of Daniel. Its the only book of the Bible that the angel told them to "seal up" till the time of the end. The 2300 day prophecy of Daniel goes all the way to 1844 and from that time on there is no more prophetic time given in the Bible. This prophecy started a movement back in the 19th century that was done all over the world yet independent of one another. Many thought that the cleansing of the sanctuary meant the Lord would come. This was the great disappointment of 1844 and is symbolic of the bitter stomach in Revelation 10 after John ate the book.

The mark of the beast will come in due time. The religious powers in this country will force everyone by pain of death to follow the beast power in Rome. For this to happen from where we are now is hard to imagine. I believe we have some very tough times ahead of us in the near future,( hopefully not too near) . Everyone saw what happened when the terrorist hit the towers on 9-11. Millions flocked to the churches for spiritual comfort and answers to what was comming next. Imagine conditions all over the world that are much much worse. Incidents including nuclear bombs and terrorists activities that stifle the imagination.

The Bible calls this the winds of strife. When the angels let go or stop holding back these winds the world will fall into a chaotic state globally. People all over our world will turn to religion to get comfort and answers and to see if this chaos can be stopped by appeasing God. You see everyone is going to think all of this chaos has been caused by the wickedness of our world and a return back to God will make it all better. Pat Robinson preaches this almost every day right now. Anyway every one will be looking for a prominent religious power to lead the world out of this mess. Well, what better entity than the "universal church" and the pope to do this? The Bible says the whole world wondered after the beast. In the greek the word wonder is translated to blindly follow.

In Daniel 7:25 it says the little horn power would think to change times and laws. I believe there will be many laws changed at this time like maybe the entire constitution of the U.S.A., but one of the laws they have already changed many centuries ago was two of God's ten commandments. The law that has to do with worshiping other God's and the Sabbath. The universal church changed God's holy 7th day to the 1st day way back in Constantine's time. Theres absolutely no Biblical support to keep the first day of the week as a holy day at all. Its a "tradition" only instituted by the universal church. Eventually everyone will be forced to worship on sunday by the enforcement of the papal power.

This issue of worship will become the mark of the beast at the very end of time before Jesus returns. The change of worship days from saturday to sunday is the ecclesiastical "mark" of its ( the universal church ) authority and power. National sunday laws will be instituted world wide and those who refuse to obey will not be able to buy or sell. Technology will facilitate this easily now. The mark will not be literal like some think. The mark in the forehead is symbolic of the mind and its acceptance to the beast's authority. The mark in the hand is for people like the atheists or agnostics that don't really care yet confirm by physical effort to avoid the penalty.

I know there will be many responses after I post this that will say I've lost my mind and thats ok. I've done my job, I've told the truth as the Lord has shown me in His word. I have planted a seed of truth for all who are interested to read and discover,,, that is if they are open minded enough to seek.

RGD

But this is the point, Jim - it did not happen the way you describe. You're not wrong in little details, you're wrong overall. You even asked for sources to confirm that you were wrong - we gave them to you, but you haven't addressed them.

No. These have all been shown to be false. All of them.

Nope. It's appropriate in certain contexts of the Bible; you haven't yet shown that it applies in this case.

Repeating wrong information doesn't make it right.

You are entitled to believe anything you want - but to falsify history to support your beliefs is intellectual dishonesty.

<large rant snipped>

You haven't lost your mind; but you are ignorant of history and have been lied to by fundamentalists with an agenda.

The open-minded are seeking the truth - you've given them lies. We're just trying to correct that.

Jack the Bodiless

Well, this is the "Biblical Criticism" forum, and the topic of this thread is "accuracy". The extended fantasy you've outlined isn't Biblical, and unless it actually happens, accuracy isn't an issue either. In other words: it's off-topic.

However, certain parts of it can be addressed:
I think the goal of most of us here is to facilitate YOUR discovery of what the Book of Daniel actually is.
Well, you miscounted. And while, as an atheist, I have no ideological reason to oppose the notion that the RCC is responsible for "30 to 50 million killed", I'm curious about the origin of such a high figure, as it exceeds anything I've seen attributed to the Inquisition. Deaths attributed to Hitler in WW2? AIDS victims in Africa as a result of the RCC's opposition to condom use?
And the truth is that 1278 "prophetic years" does NOT line up, even if we accept all the baloney that went into that. Please address this.
You can't accept our ability to read the Bible itself and see how poorly supported that claim is?
I wonder what sort of "year" you were counting there.

The rest is, of course, your fantasy. Have fun with it. I see nothing to "refute".

Jim Larmore

All of the prophecys I've mentioned are indeed Biblical . The times they line up with are historical, i.e. the time of Jesus' ministry to start and the time for the little horn to rule. Thats the long and the short of it. The only lies being spread here are the the ones which belong to the critics.

538 + 1260 = 1798 the year Berthier de-throned the sitting pope.
457 + 483 years + zero year = 27 A.D. all this other mess with the debate over the 15th year of Tiberius is secondary to the actual prophecy itself.

Jack the Bodiless

...Only if you DO NOT USE your own 360-day "prophetic year".

Why can't you address this?

Jack the Bodiless

Just to labor the point:

483 x 360 / 365.25 = 476 calendar years.

457 BC + 476 years + zero year = 20 A.D.

Oops. Missed!

Amaleq13

You haven't explained why we should accept your interpretation that the prophecy refers to the start of Jesus' ministry rather than the more obvious "starting points" such as his birth, baptism, or resurrection.

I don't understand how a possible error of at least two years (assuming you can justify using the start of the ministry) can be secondary when the whole point of your claim is the allegedly amazing accuracy of the prophecy. At one point in this thread, you suggested that a margin of error should be allowed but, later, you seemed to suggest that there was no margin of error since the prophecy is obtained from God.

I also continue to be interested in what evidence claims Tiberius' reign began in some year other than 14CE.

spin

This is another one who doesn't actually argue and refute, but ignores and continues with apparently unsupported and unsupportable waffle.

Why 360 days? Why 27 CE? Why read Jesus in Daniel?

This guy assumes what he wants and you lot say, well, I suppose I can suspend judgment for sake of a silly debate.

This is not believe.net, is it? Herr Larmore has nothing to back up his drivel.

Are we so lacking in more useful things to discuss?


furless leater

Celsus

Well I was going to discuss this furry lump on the back of my neck that I've had for months, but decided to go with playing the "YouR all Athiest PLoDs who dEny the TROOF" with our latest artificial stupidity engines. Of course, Larmore is merely following a proud tradition among apologists, so who's to deny him his cultural heritage?

Joel

Diogenes the Cynic

I always hate trying to debate about Daniel or Revelation because the nature of the apocalyptic genre is such that it's almost impossible to dissuade apologists from their pet theories. The problem with coded allegory is that it becomes a rorshache blot for the true believers. Apocalypses are like Nostradamus quatrains in that regard.