Jim Larmore

Its my contention that the major apocalyptic books namely Daniel and the "Apockalupsis" or Revelation in the Bible have very accurate prophecies.
I can show where the messianic prophecy in Daniel 9:25 had an actual fulfullment in history. I can also show who the little horn is and how the time and times and dividing of times were fulfilled exactly on time by history for this power.

I'd like to submitt as evidence the composite web site at:
www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html {fixed by mod}
as a ready source of rebuttal for the critical attempts at invalidation for Daniel. Please read thru this before making a claim .

I can show Biblically that the little horn power and the beast of Rev 13 are one in the same entity.

I can show how the Book of Daniel is authentic and thus contain valid prophecies.

Chris Weimer

You can make all these claims but can't even spell Apokalupsis correctly?

Jack the Bodiless

Your link doesn't work.

Mickie

Isn't that just deflating. :Cheeky:

Jack the Bodiless

Also:
Even if we could read it: you're the one who's making a claim.

But you haven't backed it up, nor have you made the claim itself clearly.

WHAT fulfilled prophecies? WHO is represented by the "little horn"? ...and so forth.

Jim Larmore

Thats the greek spelling , you should be a little more knowledgeble before you show your hubris.

Diogenes the Cynic

When are you dating Daniel?

Really, could you spare us the links and just state your case? Name a specific "prophecy," and tell us when you think it was "fulfilled."

Diogenes the Cynic

No it isn't.

Jack the Bodiless

...Ah. Found it, at www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html :

OK, I've skimmed through it, and it appears to be the usual apologetic confusion/obfuscation.

Some points:

1. The authors don't provide any evidence that Daniel WAS written early (except the rather bizarre argument that a late author "couldn't have known" facts about the era that WE know, more than 2000 years later still).

2. The authors apparently believe that alternative explanations for SOME of the indicators of late authorship is sufficient to establish early authorship: a sure sign of a slavish devotion to the doctrine of inerrancy. I think it's entirely reasonable to suppose that if a book was never mentioned anywhere prior to the 2nd century BC, contains accurate "prophecies" of events up to the 2nd century BC, and contains prophecies that go awry after this time (and I see no mention of the failed prophecy of a long reign for Antiochus): then the default assumption should be that it was written in the 2nd century BC.

3. My understanding is that there was a tradition of apocalyptic literature at this time, including the use of "archaic" language: this isn't mentioned.

4. Some of those excuses for errors in Daniel are very contrived, especially for "Darius the Mede".

Conclusion: I see no reason here to reject the scholarly consensus that Daniel was written circa 168-164 BC.

Jim Larmore

Sure thing, the prophecies I'm referring to are the messianic prophecy in Dan 9:25 and Daniel 7:8 , 20, 24-25. The first one says " Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks; and three score and two weeks".

This prophecy found its fulfillment in 26 to 30 A.D. depending on the historian you choose to accept. If its Tacitus then it'll be around 30 A.D. if you choose the one I accept then its between 26 and 28 A.D.

Biblical critics say its impossible to tell which decree to start with since there was more than one. I contend the only one that counts is the one that really made the restoration and building happen and thats 457 B.C. . This decree was made by Artaxerxes in the 1st month and the 7th year of his reign. Since we know Artaxerxes came to power in 464 B.C. then the decree happened in the spring of 457 B.C. He not only made the decree but he put the financial backing to make it happen i.e. Ezra 7:12-22.

Now we need to figure out how long seven weeks; and three score and two weeks are. Well a week is seven days so 7 weeks; and three score and two weeks is 69 weeks times 7 = 483 days.

If we take this as a day for a year we come to 27 A.D. the exact time Jesus started his ministry. Add 483 years to 457 and you come to 26 but we need to count the zero year so it comes to 27 A.D. . This can be verified by researching when the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar was i.e. Luke 3:1. Like I said there is a lot of debate over which is the right year but to be honest to even get within a couple years is amazing considering this prophecy was written over 500 years before. I don't believe in what the critics claim, I have solid evidence that the Bible is 100% correct.

Now lets go to Daniel 7:8 , here Daniel is speaking of a little horn that comes up from amoung the 10 horns on the fourth beast he saw comming up out of the sea, i.e. Dan 7:3 .

I think I can identify this power by logical deduction just by considering the clues given in the narrative of Daniel's prophecys , lets look at a few.

Clue #1, This little horn would be diverse from the other horns i.e. Dan 7:24 , I take this as it is vastly different than any other power to that date, BTW, these symbols of horns represent kingdoms or nations i.e. Dan 7:17.

Clue #2, it would come up from among them, or its a power that came up after the fall of Rome in 476 A.D. because these are powers that came up out of the head of the fourth beast Dan 7:7 which is accepted by most Biblical scholars as Rome. Rome is also the fourth power in the great image that Nebachadnezzar saw.
You see Rome fell to the Barbaric tribes of the north around 476 A.D. but it really didn't fall like Babylon, Persia and Greese did. It kind of disintergrated into ten little kingdoms many of which became the countries of western Europe we have today. These tribes were the Franks ( France ) , the Suevi ( Portugal ) , the Alamanni ( Germany ) , the Visogoths ( Spain ) , the Burgundians ( Switzerland ) , the Anglo-Saxons ( English ) , the Lombards ( Italy ) , this is seven and there were three more that became extinct in short order by this little horn power. They were the Ostrogoths, the Vandals and the Heruli. These ten horns are symbolically represented by these ten kingdoms , the three that were killed out is symbolic and a fulfillment of Dan 7:8, Dan 7:20 and Dan 7:24.

Clue #3, this power would were out the saints of the most high. Daniel 7:25

Clue #4 this power would think to change times and laws Dan 7:25

Clue #5 this power would speak great words against the Most High Dan 7:25 ,

Clue #6 this power would be given dominion over the saints for a time and times and a dividing of times. Dan 7:25

Without going into all the detail of why I think this is so ( I will if I'm challenged ) I believe all these clues point to none other than the Roman papacy as the little horn power.

Now the prophecy said he would have the saints in his hand for a time and times and a dividing of times i.e. Dan 7:25

If we look at the hebrew a time is a year which is 360 days long times is two years which is 720 days long, a dividing of times is one half of a year of 180 days long, ,,, add this up:
720
360
180
----
1260 days or prophetic years.

History validates we take a day for a year in this prophecy, and indeed this is supported Biblically in Ezek4:6 and Numbers 14:34. BTW, this is the same time period that is given in various was 7 times in Daniel and the Revelation. Sometimes its given as 42 months, sometimes it given as one thousand two hundred and sixty days, sometimes it given as a time and times and a dividing of times. Its all the same time period.

Now for the fulfillment. The first Bishop of Rome was crowned by Emperor Justinian in 538 A.D. .Shortly after this coronation he dispatched his papal armies and slaughtered the three tribes of the Vandals, the Ostrogoths and the Heruli ( i.e. the three horns plucked up by the roots ) . This little horn power ruled until General Berthier of Napolean's armie de-throned him and abolished the papacy in 1798 right on time for the prophecy's fulfillment, i.e. 538 plus 1260 years = 1798.

Like I said I believe this little horn is none other than the papacy. I know I can prove that the selucid antiochus epiphanes cannot fit even two of the clues given in Dan 7:25. I believe the little horn is exactly the same power as the beast in Rev 13 and this de-thronement was the deadly would spoken of in Rev 13:3, the healing occurred in 1929 when the Italian dictator Mussilinni re-established the papacy.