Freethought & Rationalism Archive

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

Would you like a reference to the different gospel accounts of the ressurection? I would have thought you'd know what they say pretty well but, as your answer above about the contradictory nature was, "...", perhaps you need help.

Sure you can give me all the gospel accounts you want. But the four in the bible are accurate and were all written within 55 AD...closet to jesus and his death. But, if your going to pull gospels out that aren't in the bible then that would mean that they are all written after 300AD...you have to look at it logically.

06-04-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Dude, are you ready to take on every historian..? B/c this has been proven.

Okay, I'll call you out. Show your proof that the Romans put the people who were crucified in tombs. The only one who is going against the Roman historians is you.

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

Proven how? There are no contemporaneous account by anybody that knew him during his 'life'. Nobody wrote about him until after his death and those people never met him. Never. Show the world anything to the contrary and you will be lauded heavily.

Ok guys, seriously...This is not the debate here. Jesus was a real person. Research it for yourself..I'm not going to do that for you. Are you saying aristotle wasn't a person b/c nobody ever saw him...think about what your saying.

06-04-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Ok guys, seriously...This is not the debate here. Jesus was a real person.

Well of course it's not. People are trying to have a debate with you and you just throw out these assertions and claiming them to be fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Research it for yourself..I'm not going to do that for you.

I have, I have no reason to believe that the Jesus protrayed in the bible was real. Sure there may have been a historical man named Jesus but he was most likely nothing like the biblical Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Are you saying aristotle wasn't a person b/c nobody ever saw him...

I can't remember but wasn't their someone talking about using fallacious arguments just a few posts above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

think about what your saying.

Right back at, ya.

Patriarch Verlch · 06-04-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Hello. Patriarch Verlch, and welcome to IIDB. You have made a number of assertions grounded in Christian tradition which unfortunately are completely lacking in any historical evidence or corroboration, and in some cases are demonstrably incorrect.

To wit:

1. We do not possess the testimony of any disciple or any eyewitness of Jesus. Nothing in the New Testament was written by anyone who ever met Jesus.

2. There is no evidence that any disciple was ever martyred for his beliefs.

3. There is no evidence that any of the disciples (if they existed at all) ever made any supernatural claims about Jesus. ever claimed he had physically risen from the dead, ever claimed to have seen an empty tomb, ever claimed to have believed Jesus was God or ever claimed to have believed he was the Messiah. All of those claims were made decades after the alleged facts by people who never met Jesus and probably never met anyone else who ever met Jesus.

You should like the Rabbinic forces that loathed Christianity for breaking up Judaism.

There are ceremonies that we do, washing of the feet, having communion with one another.

The Jews did things like celebrate their exoneration from Egypt as slaves and other important dates. Are you going to tell them that they believe in Rubbish as well? Just because somebody dies doesn't mean they don't leave a legacy. That the ones born after them hear about.

Other interesting notes, is that we no longer sacrifice animals to cleanse our sins at the temple. That was done away when Jesus died on the cross and the temple veil was went in two. Nothing else can explain the fact that orthodox Jews no longer make sacrifices to God.

What is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Are they not eyewitness accounts? Written by the men closest to Jesus.

Moses didn't see creation, but it didn't stop him from writing about it.

Look at the universe around you, why marginalize it? Did you know we are hurling through space at well over 1,000,000 miles an hour? Take the speed of the earth around the sun, the speed of the sun around the center the galaxy, and the speed the galaxy is moving through space. The speed may even be faster.

http://www.motodom.com/Galaxy.htm

Those pictures are amazing.

Did you know there are suns that are bigger than the orbit of Pluto? That speaks of understanding, the immense distances, yet things operate smoothly. The sun always rises and sets, for all this to happen by accident is a mind blower.

It takes more faith to believe that atoms formed life unguided, than it does to believe in the Abrahamic God of the bible.

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 12:49 PM

I've posted this before but Ted Drange's The Argument from the Bible has a great section a bit more than halfway down about the ressurection account in the gospels. I've tried to post it here before but the table's always get screwed up. I'll try this way (Starting with question two, the 'Yes' answer(s) is(are) first followed the 'No' after several spaces):

Code:

Question 	
1. How many women went to Jesus's tomb?

One - John 20:1-18          Three - Mk 16:1-8 Two - Mt 28:1-8             Many - Lu 23:55-24:10

The rest are in Yes/No format
                                             Yes 	No
2. Was it still dark out? 	John 20:1 	 	Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2

3. Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb? 	Mt 28:8; Lu 24:9-10; John 20:2 	 	Mk 16:8

4. Did she go back to the tomb with any of them? 	John 20:2-11          	Mt 28:1-10,16; Mk 16:8-14; Lu 24:9-12

5. Was there just one angel at Jesus's tomb? 	Mt 28:2-5; Mk 16:5-6 	     (There were two.) Lu 24:4-5; John 20:11-13

6. Were the angels inside the tomb? 	Mk 16:5; John 20:11-12      	(The one angel was outside.) Mt 28:2

7. Were there guards at the tomb? 	Mt 27:62-66, 28:2-4,11-15           	Mk 15:44-16:10; Lu 23:50-24:12; John 19:38-20:12

8. Did the angel(s) look like lightning? 	Mt 28:2-4      	(Humanlike) Mk 16:5; Lu 24:4

9. Did the angel(s) get to the tomb first? 	Mk 16:5         	Lu 24:2-4; John 20:1-12

10. Did Peter go alone? 	Lu 24:12        	John 20:2-6

11. Did Jesus appear first to Cephas (Peter)? 	1Co 15:3-5        	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lu 24:9-15; John 20:14

12. Did he appear at all to Mary Magdalene? 	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9 John 20:11-14        	Lu 24:1-51; 1Co 15:3-8

13. Did he appear to her at the tomb after the disciples were told? 	John 20:1-14 	       (Not at the tomb, and before they were told) Mt 28:1-9; Mk 16:1-10

14. Was she alone when Jesus appeared to her? 	Mk 16:9-10; John 20:10-14 	       (The other Mary was with her.) Mt 28:1-9

15. Did she recognize him immediately? 	Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9-10 	       John 20:14

16. Did Peter go to the tomb before the others were told about it? 	(But he was not alone.) John 20:1-3,18        	(It was after, and he went alone.) Lu 24:9-12

17. Did Jesus specially appear to two disciples? 	Mk 16:12; Lu 24:13-31        	Mt 28:16-18; John 20:19-29

18. Did they recognize him immediately? 	Mk 16:12-13        	Lu 24:13-16

19. Did he later appear as they spoke to the others? 	Lu 24:36        	(It was after.) Mk 16:14

20. Did he scold the others for not believing them? 	Mk 16:14        	Lu 24:35-51

21. Did Jesus appear just once to the disciples? 	Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51        	(It was thrice.) John 20:19-26, 21:1-2,14

22. Was the 1st appearance to them in Galilee? 	Mt 28:9-10,16-18        	Lu 24:33-36,49-51; John 20:18-26; Ac 1:4

23. Did they all recognize him immediately? 	Mk 16:14-20; John 20:19-20        	Mt 28:16-17; Lu 24:36-41

24. Did he ascend to heaven immediately afterwards? 	Mt 28:9-10,16-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51        	John 20:19-26, 21:1; Ac 1:1-9; 1Co 15:3-8

25. Did he appear to them twice, eight days apart? 	John 20:19-26        	Mt 28:9-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51

26. Did he appear to the Twelve, to over 500, & then specially to James? 	1Co 15:5-7        	Mt 27, 28; Mk 16; Lu 24; John 20, 21

27. Did Jesus ascend to heaven from Bethany? 	Lu 24:50-51        	(From Mt. Olivet) Ac 1:9-12; (Jerusalem) Mk 16:14-19

28. Was Jesus the only one to ascend to heaven? 	John 3:13        	(Enoch and Elijah too) Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11

29. Did Paul's companions hear Jesus's voice? 	Ac 9:7        	Ac 22:9, 26:14

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObiKenobi

Okay, I'll call you out. Show your proof that the Romans put the people who were crucified in tombs. The only one who is going against the Roman historians is you.

His disciples requested a tomb, firstly. Second, why do I have to sit here and show you stuff that has already been proven...look it up for youself...here, for starters http://www.lamp.ac.uk/~noy/death5.htm

Romans DID use tombs. Pontious Pilate was in a tomb...the roman governor at the time.

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

What is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Are they not eyewitness accounts? Written by the men closest to Jesus.

This, alone, shows your ignorance. No, they are not eyewitness accounts. Not according to any biblical scholar I know. They were not written by 'the men closest to Jesus'. There names weren't Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They were made up at a later date. Don't take my word for it, though. Learn something.

Biff the unclean · 06-04-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Ok guys, seriously...This is not the debate here. Jesus was a real person. Research it for yourself..I'm not going to do that for you.

We have done just that. There is nothing to even suggest that Jesus was an actual person. ALL of his life story is based on the “lives” of various pagan gods and demigods.
There is no record of an actual person living who might have been the inspiration of the fiction Jesus as there are for King Arthur and Robin Hood.
There is nothing from the time he was supposed to have lived that mentions him. Nothing.

I don’t know who is feeding you this baloney that Jesus was a real person but if you do any actual research you will find that there is nothing... seriously.

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

His disciples requested a tomb, firstly. Second, why do I have to sit here and show you stuff that has already been proven...look it up for youself...here, for starters http://www.lamp.ac.uk/~noy/death5.htm

Romans DID use tombs. Pontious Pilate was in a tomb...the roman governor at the time.

Nobody is arguing they didn't use tombs, just that they never used them for the crucified.

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