Jagella

While I was discussing at Apologetics.org how this world could be made better, I thought and explicitly stated that the alleged God that created this world is “rather stupid.� My reason for saying that he’s no intellectual giant is that he could have used his great powers to create and maintain a far better world than the one we live in. I thought it might be interesting to discuss some Bible stories to see what this God did and think about some way he could have more intelligently resolved some problem. For the sake of this analysis I will assume that this God existed at the times these events allegedly took place. I also will assume that he was both omnipotent and omniscient at those times. That is, he was capable of doing anything that is logically possible and that he knew all facts that are possible to know. I will not assume that he was intelligent because that’s what I’m trying to assess here. The events I will discuss include Lucifer being cast out of heaven, the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, the Deluge, the warfare between the Israelites and the Amalekites, and the coming of Jesus.

Isaiah 14:12 describes Lucifer being cast out of heaven.

According to Christian beliefs, God created angels to live with him in heaven. One of these angels, named Lucifer, was especially beautiful. Lucifer dared to compare himself to God, and God, not wanting any competition, became wrathful and decided Lucifer was not to remain in heaven. A war then broke out in which two-thirds of the angels loyal to God cast Lucifer and one-third of the angels that sided with Lucifer out of heaven. Lucifer was understandably upset, and as a result decided to bring all of mankind down with him. Since then Lucifer has been renamed “Satan� and is doing his best to tempt us all to sin and therefore burn in hell with him.

What could God have done? It’s not hard to see that a smarter course of action would have been to not have created Lucifer to begin with! It’s only common sense to realize that you don’t create an enemy. God should have known better. Moreover, you don’t unleash this enemy on your creations to hurt them as well. It’s a no-brainer.

The events described in Isaiah set the scene for the events described in Genesis 3. In this story we are told that Adam and Eve, the first two people that God created, are commanded not to eat fruit from “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil lest they die.� Satan, no doubt still miffed over his being cast out of heaven, seeks revenge by taking the form of a snake and tempting Eve to eat that fruit anyway. Eve eats the fruit, and Adam follows suit. God, who knows all, realized what happened. Consequently he kicked Adam and Eve out of paradise condemning them and all of their descendents (us) to a life of toil and hardship.

What could God have done? Obviously, a simple act of disobedience does not warrant universal condemnation of the human race! None of us are responsible for what our alleged first parents might have done. God should realize that it’s unjust to punish children for the actions of their parents. Also, he could have refrained from setting such a trap in the Garden of Eden especially considering the fact that he knew that Eve and later Adam would fall into that trap. It’s a no-brainer.

Now the expulsion from Eden along with the dire consequences of toil and pain for all humanity is not the end of the story, of course. God still got upset with his creations, and he observed that the “thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.� How did God attempt to solve this problem? Why, he killed everybody, of course! But not just people are killed—he decided to kill almost all the animals too. What sins the animals may have committed is never specified, but not all of them are lost. God decided to spare one family of humans who are commanded to build a very large boat into which all “kinds� of animals are led to preserve these kinds. God then makes it rain cats and dogs for forty days and nights. All people and animals not on the ark are drowned. A few months later the waters finally receded and the animals along with the humans on the boat go back to their lives and beget more of their kind. God, feeling kind of bad over all this, made a rainbow as a sign that he’ll never drown the whole world again.

What could God have done? If he was so upset with his creations to the point of killing them all, then he should have not created them to begin with! If God doesn’t like “evil thoughts,� then he shouldn’t have given us that choice to begin with. God should have realized that as bad as the behavior of people then might have been, it makes little sense to drown all of them. Finally, you don’t drown animals for the actions of humans! It’s a no-brainer.

Like the expulsion from Eden, God’s flooding the world does little to eradicate human evil. Humans still fight and kill, and even God’s own “chosen people,� the Israelites, end up going to war with their enemies. One of their enemies, the Amalekites, are treated especially harshly by the Israelites who were supposedly following the orders of God. God ordered that the Amalekites, including the women and infants, are to be killed. The Israelites obey God’s order and butcher every one of the Amalekites including the little babies.

What could God have done? God should remember that since he’s all-powerful, then he’s invulnerable. Anybody he wishes to protect is invulnerable as well. Therefore, there’s no reason to harm anybody. God could have simply apportioned some land to both the Israelites and the Amalekites. Make both areas of land capable of supporting both populations. Consequently, nobody would be out to fight over land. If anybody did wish to fight for some other reason, then don’t allow it! Put up protective barriers around both peoples to protect them all. It’s a no-brainer.

Finally, God decides once again that people aren’t what he wishes them to be. This time God outdoes himself, you might say, by taking on human flesh! He impregnates a woman with himself without any of that “dirty� sex that he created. The incarnated version of God is called “Jesus� who is to save humanity from their sins. What exactly are we humans to be saved from? This time rather than deal with our “evil� natures with a mere earthly and temporary punishment, God decided to create a “lake of fire� (hell) into which Satan (remember him?) and any unrepentant people are to be cast and burned by that fire for all eternity. Anyway, Jesus is to go about warning people of this horrific fate. He waited until he's about 30 years old to get started on it, and one must wonder how many people died and went to hell while Jesus was getting his act together. As you might imagine, God looking like a man was no doubt less impressive than what he normally looks like, and this “God incognito� resulted in a lot of people being skeptical if this really was God! To lessen their doubts, Jesus decided to perform some miracles that were meant to be signs to all humanity that he was indeed God in the flesh. Despite these signs, some people were still doubters, and Jesus was very unhappy about their doubting his deity. He started to fight with these skeptics calling them “fools.� These “fools,� not wishing to endure such name-calling, decided to have Jesus executed by the Romans. Even Satan gets in on the act by “entering� one of Jesus’ associates and possessing him to hand over Jesus to the Romans. But the joke’s on Satan, you might say, because Jesus’ execution on the cross is not in vain. God decided to make the death of his “son� a way to have people saved from hell. A few days later Jesus is raised from the dead. Anybody who believes this death and resurrection will therefore be saved from hell. This message is spread by various followers of Jesus who go about that part of the world telling people what happened. It takes centuries for the message to be spread this way, and again one must wonder how many people have been damned for missing it because it took so long for missionaries to arrive in their part of the world.

What could God have done? Obviously, burning people for all eternity is a horror. Nothing anybody could have done would warrant such a punishment. God should never have created a lake of fire. If God cannot stand “sinful� people, then he shouldn’t have created any! He should have created only those of us that he knew would be “good Christians.� If God wished to spread a message among humanity regarding what he wanted them to believe, then the last thing he should have done was to become human. Becoming human makes him appear to be, well, human! It’s only reasonable that many people would miss his divine nature. Also, it was cruelly unnecessary to demand that his own son die a horrific death to partially mitigate his wrath at those who displeased him. I’d say that it would have made better sense for God to come to terms with his vengeful anger rather than seek his own son’s death. Simply forgive people for whatever sins they may have committed. Finally, don’t insist that people accept the words of other people who arrive centuries after the fact to tell them to believe these wild stories! God should have told people of Jesus’ death and resurrection (if God insisted on these events) right away using his divine powers to proclaim it to the world. It’s a no-brainer.

In conclusion, if you haven’t already noticed, I’m trying to explain how a mere human such as myself can think up much better solutions to problems than the Bible God has supposedly done. What he is said to have done is simply stupid. It’s takes little thought to resolve those kinds of issues assuming that one is omnipotent and omniscient. It’s almost as if God forgot he had such powers, or a more likely explanation is that the Bible writers that penned these myths didn’t understand the logical implications of omnipotence and omniscience. That is, the God they created was more like a petty and vengeful human ruler with all the attendant vices including stupidity and cruelty.

Jagella

NewtonPooton

.....the God they created was more like a petty and vengeful human ruler with all the attendant vices including stupidity and cruelty.

That's usually how ancient peoples wrote about their gods.

But don't forget about the book of Job. Somebody was listening to a conversation between god and satan otherwise that book simply could not have existed. So, the simple fact that the book of Job exists PROVES BEYOND A DOUBT that god is real! Otherwise how could some one have recorded his and satans thoughts?

But, to keep on your topic... what could god have done to his loving, faithful servant besides letting satan have his way with him? Duh, not let satan have his way with him. Why the hell would god have to prove something to the very being he cast out of heaven? Inferiority complex? Lucifer was quite beautiful, didn't you say? So, maybe god still thinks he has something to prove to the old boy, even though he cast him and his buddies out of heaven. Hmmm... maybe he's actually worried about how the big fight at the end will turn out. My money's on Lucifer.

shawn

Chili

Do you think maybe that God wanted humans to do his dirty work outside Eden where they must compete as warriors to gather wisdom, food and beauty in effort to enhance the garden itself?

Jagella

Absolutely. The gods of Israel as well as its contemporaries were modeled after human rulers. The God of the Bible, for example, is very human. As such, he’s subject to the same foibles that any human might have.

I’ve often wondered how this “inspiration� took place. Did God actually appear to the Bible writers in a vision to dictate his “word�? If so, then why didn’t the scribe just let God do the writing? After all, if God can create galaxies, then scribbling a few pages of “thou shalt nots� would be no problem for him.

Yes, but remember: God likes to show off his powers, and allowing Satan to ruin Job’s life was the perfect opportunity to do just that!

Let’s just say it was “negative reinforcement.� God needed to remind Satan who’s boss!

Well, that’s what the Bible says. I believe Lucifer was very shiny.

The way this world is going, your money appears to be safe. Just don’t make the same mistake Lucifer did. Betting against the all-mighty can be a shaky proposition.

Jagella

Jagella

Probably not. As far as anybody of us know, the Garden of Eden is long gone. I believe it was in what is modern-day Iraq. If it’s still there, then maybe we can get Pat Robertson to finance an expedition to look for it. We’ll just need to look for an angel with a flaming sword. Can’t miss that!

Jagella

spin

Just a small comment on the use of Lucifer.

The Hebrew naturally doesn't have "Lucifer" which is a Latin translation of a Greek rendition of the Hebrew. The Hebrew talks of "Heylal" or "shining (one)", which the Greek translator reasonably took as a reference to Venus in the role of the bright precursor to the sun, ie the morning star ("son of the morning"), called in Greek Eosphoros, "dawn bearer", which in Latin is Luciferus, "light bearer".

The original Hebrew passage was ostensibly a prophecy against the king of Babylon, whose arrogance was so great he appeared to challenge heaven. Being so great a king, having control of half the known world "you who laid the nations low", his position was seen as akin to the morning star, while Yahweh was of course the sun. The end result of great arrogance is great fall.

The christians, in a typical dose of misappropriation and misinterpretation, turn the image of the king of Babylon, seen as the morning star, into the devil by equating the name Lucifer with Satan. It is in fact interesting that they chose to use the name Lucifer, for it means that the Latin form rather than the Greek was the relevant one, meaning quite a late development of the interpretation of Isa 14:12 in the now usual christianized reading.


spin

rob117

Yeah, the Isaiah passage has nothing to do with Satan. I believe I've read that the association of Satan with the morning star was not made until the book of Enoch (2nd century BC), and that Revelation borrowed it from there.

Jagella

Very interesting. How much do you know about the evolution of Yahweh himself? I always thought that it would be fascinating to uncover some good evidence that the God we all know and love—well, the God we may know—was based on some king or other prominent human. I’ve read When God was a Woman , and the author, Merlin Stone, claims that the all-powerful, warlike male God may have originated with the Indo-Europeans who invaded the Near East around 2,000 BC. It’s entirely possible that the Indo-Europeans in turn based this deity on one of their kings. So wasthe God Christians worship originally a prehistoric, Indo-European king? Interesting idea.

Jagella

spin

All evidence that I know about indicates that Yahweh is not Indo-European.

There were numerous intrusions of Indo-Europeans in the ANE, for example there were the Kassites who settled around Babylonia, the Hittites in central Anatolia and the Mitanni in the Khabur region. There was also a group of mixed peoples who made their way into Egypt and over a century or so took control of the country (known to us as the Hyksos), but there is little evidence of Indo-Europeans settling (long enough) in Palestine to leave such a gift.

Although there may be a reference to Yah in the Ugarit texts, all other evidence suggests that the deity is a southern one which has absorbed characteristics of Baal, then coalesced with El, moving from one of the sons of El (in Dt 32:8-9) and acquiring El's wife Asherah in the process.

But sorry, I can't shed any light on a hypothetical Indo-European source for Yahweh. I have seen numerous I-E deities mentioned but nothing like Yahweh. And as I have implied, the notion is very dubious to me.


spin

John A. Broussard

Clearly, the god of the early Israelites was nothing more than a local god. Just as with all their neighbors, the Israelites felt that their god was watching out for them and helped them in battle against their enemies.

There really isn't much difference between the early biblical references to their god and the gods of the Illiad. They take sides, punish the disloyal and reward those who obey them.

It's only later that the local god becomes more and more what theists speak of today--omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-good, all-knowing and on and on. Reconciling the current god with the early biblical god is one of the toughest jobs imaginable. That's why Christian theists have to twist bible verses into corkscrews to make those two god figures the same.