Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 05:51 PM

Also this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii_Zealots

In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad.

Sicarii were a sect within the Zealots

Add this to the fact it is stated the Zealots started the tax war in 6, and started the tax war when the temple fell.

Toto · 12-23-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I know of no support for your claim that the zealots were a large proportion of Jews.

Then please, use google.

Most Galileans, less the Hellenistic Roman communities, were often labeled as Zealots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean

Generically, a Galilean is an inhabitant of Galilee. Galileans (or Galilæans) were also the members of a fanatical sect (Zealots), followers of Judas of Galilee, who fiercely resented the taxation of the Romans, and whose violence contributed to induce the latter to vow the extermination of the whole race.

That doesn't make most Jews to be Zealots.

Quote:

The question now is whether there was a mass suicide, not just some people who committed suicide. You earlier claimed that "Josephas historicity is not in question here at all." I think this is clearly wrong. There are questions.

Only regarding the context of Masada, was my statement made.

Ive made it perfcetly clear I do not follow a inerrant Josephus

This is about the historicity of Josephus' account of Masada. There are disputes as to its historicity.

Toto · 12-23-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Also this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii_Zealots

In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad.

Sicarii were a sect within the Zealots

Add this to the fact it is stated the Zealots started the tax war in 6, and started the tax war when the temple fell.

"Dominant revolutionary Jewish Party" does not quite translate into most of the Jews, if most Jews were not revolutionaries.

Minimalist · 12-23-2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

n this case, dealing with the four groups within Judaism. There is absolutely no reason to question them as they all exist as stated outside his works.

I quite agree. However, the City of Atlanta is mentioned in Gone With The Wind. That does not make Scarlett O'Hara a real person. Did those 4 groups exist. Almost certainly. Did the Romans storm Masada? Yes, the remains of the ramp used by L. Flavius Silva are still extant. Was Josephus' account of the siege accurate? Doubtful as he was in Rome and not present at the battle.

Sorry about being so late getting back to the party.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

n this case, dealing with the four groups within Judaism. There is absolutely no reason to question them as they all exist as stated outside his works.

I quite agree. However, the City of Atlanta is mentioned in Gone With The Wind. That does not make Scarlett O'Hara a real person. Did those 4 groups exist. Almost certainly. Did the Romans storm Masada? Yes, the remains of the ramp used by L. Flavius Silva are still extant. Was Josephus' account of the siege accurate? Doubtful as he was in Rome and not present at the battle.

Sorry about being so late getting back to the party.

No problem.

I dont have a problem with that, I agree.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Also this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii_Zealots

In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad.

Sicarii were a sect within the Zealots

Add this to the fact it is stated the Zealots started the tax war in 6, and started the tax war when the temple fell.

"Dominant revolutionary Jewish Party" does not quite translate into most of the Jews, if most Jews were not revolutionaries.

True but the Galilean claim add's weight.

Not only that the average hard working peasant jew, which amounts to about 90% ""ish"" of the jewish population was unhappy, if not hatefull over the Roman oppression. God-fearers who claimed themselves as Jews do not count, as they were not fully converted Jews. Synagogues like those found in Sepphoris would have catered to these false Jews and I would not call them Jewish.

What you may need to remember is Romans coined the term Zealots, not Jews.

You also missed my post where I stated Zealots is a "general term" mainly used by Romans to describe those who opposed oppression.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 08:48 PM

What order would you place these by population size?

obviously ill go

Zealots
Essenes
Pharisees
Saducees

semiopen · 12-24-2012, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

n this case, dealing with the four groups within Judaism. There is absolutely no reason to question them as they all exist as stated outside his works.

I quite agree. However, the City of Atlanta is mentioned in Gone With The Wind. That does not make Scarlett O'Hara a real person. Did those 4 groups exist. Almost certainly. Did the Romans storm Masada? Yes, the remains of the ramp used by L. Flavius Silva are still extant. Was Josephus' account of the siege accurate? Doubtful as he was in Rome and not present at the battle.

Sorry about being so late getting back to the party.

"Storm" is such a strong word.

The Romans spent about three months or so building the ramp and the defenders killed themselves (or not) once it was completed. If they simply got wiped out with little resistance maybe that became the basis for the legend of them being dead before the Romans opened the door - dead people not being noted for putting up determined resistance.

On my trip to the Mediteranean, they were showing a TV documentary which mentioned that Jewish slaves were forced to build the ramp. This seems outrageous because of supply logistics, etc - the soldiers undoubtedly built the ramp (what else would they have been doing?). Just amazing considering the mind that would have invented that legend.

Minimalist · 12-25-2012, 06:05 AM

Quote:

(what else would they have been doing?)

Guarding the slaves who were doing the grunt work? To be sure the work would have been directed and supervised by the engineering specialists but you don't have to be an engineer to carry rocks.

You correctly mention the logistical problem and certainly Silva's cavalry contingents would have been busy guarding the supply wagons rolling back and forth to supply water.

The legionaries who were not making sure the slaves dropped their rocks where they were supposed to would have been operating the ballistas and some would have been standing to arms at all times to guard against a sortie.

I'll bet there was plenty of work for them to do.

semiopen · 12-25-2012, 07:07 AM

Sorry if my previous post was too confrontational Mini, as I'm sure we are in basic agreement.

My impression is that there were no Jewish slaves used to build the thing; I read an excellent article on this a while ago but can't find it. There are no references to Jewish slaves that I have found by searching, so I don't think anyone seriously believes this anymore.

The Siege of Masada: Piecing Together the Puzzle

Quote:

However, archaeology sheds valuable light on other aspects of the Roman siege of Masada, which was conducted in the winter-spring of 72/73 or 73/74 C.E. and probably lasted no longer than 2-3 months. The Roman siege works, including eight camps that housed approximately 8000 troops and a circumvallation (siege) wall, still are clearly visible encircling the base of the mountain.

Quote:

Because Masada is in the desert, supplies (mainly food and water) were likely brought in skins, bags, and woven baskets from other parts of the country, transported overland on pack animals or on small boats across the Dead Sea. Upon reaching the camps at Masada, the supplies were emptied into large ceramic jars for storage.

No Jewish slave rap from Dr Magness.

Nachman Ben-Yehuda of Hebrew University seems to be the guy that knows the most about Masada.

The Masada Myth

Previously I mentioned three months as a likely siege duration but from page 3.

Quote:

Most researchers seem to accept that the siege and fall of Masada only took a few months—Probably from the winter of 72/73 A.D. until the following spring—A matter of 4-6 (maybe 8) months. In fact, Roth's impressively meticulous study (1995) states:

All in all, a nine-week siege is the likely maximum, a four-week siege the likely minimum, and a siege of seven weeks the most probable length for the siege of Masada. Postulating a siege of some seven weeks fits in well with the date given by Josephus for the fall of the fortress, whatever calendar is being used (p. 109).

Your statement about guard duty seems dubious because the Romans had already finished mopping up Jewish resistance before taking on Masada. The legion involved was composed of Syrians; their commanders probably wouldn't especially want to give them easy duty.

Quote:

From the Roman military perspective, the Masada campaign must have been an insignificant action following a very major war in Judea—a sort of a mop-up operation. It was something the Roman army had to do, but that did not involve anything too special in terms of military strategy or effort. In fact, Shatzman (1993) notes that the Roman siege of Masada was quite standard.

My guess is that Shatzman refuted the 5000 Jewish slaves sob story in his book.

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12-23-2012, 05:51 PM	#31
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Also this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii_Zealots In Josephus' Jewish War (vii), after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE, the sicarii became the dominant revolutionary Jewish party, scattered abroad. Sicarii were a sect within the Zealots Add this to the fact it is stated the Zealots started the tax war in 6, and started the tax war when the temple fell.

12-23-2012, 08:48 PM	#37
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	What order would you place these by population size? obviously ill go Zealots Essenes Pharisees Saducees

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