general_koffi

Aye, religion can often be said to contain magic.

Are not all the wonderful things, apparently done by the late Jesus Christ, magic?

amaradulcis_nyx

I'm currently reading The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion by James George Frazer, so my take on this is that they are both forms of magical thinking. Wiki's entry is here, also.

My own past experiences of being a X-ian remind me a lot of magic - formulas, rituals, supplication, directing my energy and purpose to certain thoughts, behavior and tasks to try to change or alter the course of events. The "magic" just supposedly tapped into a higher power than myself.

Astreja, I like the idea you presented. Wouldn't you agree, though, that magic often uses (or tries to use) other powers than willpower alone? I'm thinking mainly of earth or pagan "magic" though those practioners could be considered religious as well.

BigJim

Belief in religion and belief that a magician is doing actual real magic(TM) is related IMO. Lack of skepticism, and critical thinking allow people to believe things that aren't real.

Astreja

I agree with "tries to use." My view is that the most effective 'magic' recognizes and synchronizes itself with existing force vectors... Think of it as giving an extra push to a marble that's already rolling down an incline under the influence of gravity. Ineffective magic denies reality and nullifies itself by being out of phase with the moment.

The "external forces" are also heavily laden with symbolism, and symbols are essentially the language that magic speaks. In order to tap the potential of one's own subconscious, it's necessary to either transcend the barriers of spoken language, or else fortify the spoken with intense emotion and symbolism.

For example, if one "invokes an earth elemental" one is meditating on the memes we associate with earth: Stability, solidity, inertia. Imagination and emotion make the elemental real to the magician, whose subsequent perceptions and actions are flavoured with earth-like qualities.

On a side note, I once heard somewhere that the subconscious mind works in "absolute numbers" -- If you give it the value of -5, the subconscious translates it as +5, discarding the negative sign. You cannot prevent something by saying "No"; you must concentrate on causing something else by saying "Yes." Which is why systems with "thou shalt not..." commandments are so ineffective in modeling moral behaviour.

thebeave

Jesus turned water into wine. If that's not a magic trick, I don't know what is.

Damn...I wish I knew how He did that. I'll bet it was the old "switcheroo".

Dryhad

I bet it was M, M, L, and J taking "poetic license".

GodfreyTemple

I often find myself thinking of magic in the same framework that Terry Pratchett lays-out through the Character of Granny Weatherwax. "Headology" the character calls it.

It's not about what really happened but what people believe/think happened and convincing them of how things are/are going to be is the entire trick.

Upon such things can powerful and persuasive personalities perform magicks of the earth and miracles of the faith.


So in a way I agree with Astreja, insofar as one can go so far as to also trick the self into doing great things.

amaradulcis_nyx

Very interesting! I see many similarities to religion - symbolism, emotion, meditating upon things or traits associated with the god(s), jesus, mary, prophets, etc. I also recall how important emotion was to me when I was a X-ian. I "felt" things so it made them real to me.

They are looking to be the same thing (as WCH and The Other Michael both noted above), just relying on different sources. I doubt I will tell my family that they are participating in magic or magical thinking though. I can imagine that response.

amaradulcis_nyx

Ah, the esteemed Pterry. He has a lovely way of looking at things, doesn't he? I will have to ponder "headology" and re-read some of my Discworld novels. Granny is an interesting character and I have to respect someone (even if they are fictional) who firmly believes in owning a sturdy pair of boots.

GodfreyTemple

It seems to me that every example of both religion and magic I have ever seen was basically that.

It was what it was because I believed it to be so.


And I can think of many worse ways to spend time than re-reading Pterry. Patricularly while wearing sturdy boots.