DCHindley

I'm not quite catching your point here. I am comparing NT use of Greek phrases to Greek Old Testament citations (BGT derives these from Rhalfs' edition, which is ecclectic) The LXA ET by Brenton is based on Codex Vaticanus, with occasional corrections from Codex Alexandrinus. LXA includes the Apocrypha, as does the edition of Rhalphs' used by BGT.

In Hebrew, the passage does say something corresponding to the RSV's " it is good to be near God (elohim); I have made the Lord GOD ( בַּאדֹנָ֣י יְהֹוִ֣ה = Lord YHWH, which is why they chose to translate YHWH with a capitalized "GOD", so as not to have to translate it "Lord LORD") my refuge".

This is not the same as writing the divine name in Paleo-Hebrew font when the rest of the document is in the square Aramaic font.

Gotta finish mowing the grass.

DCH

Solo

I believe we have already had a discussion on this, spin. You should know that I don't claim that God the Father and Son are the same referent. The discussion is about whether the referent Lord, even in the absolute anarthrous form, refers in Paul's letters to God or Jesus. I remember you giving me a list of Paul's verses to go over and asking me to indicate which of the two entities they refered to. And indeed they were some where Paul clearly pointed to "Lord" of the tanakh without any of his own modifiers or comments. In those instances, I had no reason to argue that Paul refered to the Son.

But I also remember trying to convince you that Paul had a theological agenda which transferred the classical function of God's judgment to Christ, i.e. in the execution of the writ. If then Paul speaks of "day of (the) Lord" in 1 Th 5:2 (using ἡμέρα κυρίου), one can safely assume he means the same day as he does in 1 Cr 5:5, or 2 Cr 1:14 where he uses day of the "Lord Jesus".

In a similar fashion, Paul makes the Spirit a near-absolute manifestation of God (reserving the the final ruling on whether the manifestation is genuine or not - 2 Cr 11:14). Therefore my reading of κυριος πνευμα in 2 Cr 3:18 will be that the reference is to the experience of the Son, not direct new conceptualization of God.

This would be Paul at his sneakiest: as it is written suggests naturally, Lord the God, but Paul has just finished defining Christ as the paradoxical wisdom of God, whereby power, social standing, learning, wisdom are all brought to nought by God's foolishness in choosing Christ, as that by which he would be reconciled to men. So when Paul boasts, he only boasts of his weakness in the Lord 2 Cr 12:9 :

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

So you tell me what Paul meant by boasting in the Lord !

Best,
Jiri

spin

I have already pointed out that Paul uses similar phrases with both Jesus and god. It can be the day of both Jesus and god. Jesus's as proxy for god.

In Paul generally, glory, as in 2 Cor 3:18, is a feature of god, here "the glory of the lord".

Non-titular κυριος.

DCHindley

While doing my fun fun research, it occurred to me that the place where God and Jesus get the most confused are the the benedictions and doxologies of the letters of Paul.

Now I happened to stray across a Doctoral Dissertation by Leonard G. Champion, (M Diebelus was his referent, with date of exam 24 Feb. 1934 from the Theological Faculty of the Ruprecht-Karls University in Heidelberg, published probably a couple years later by Kemp Hall Press, Ltd at Oxford): Benedictions and doxologies in the Epistles of Paul

[13] INTRODUCTION

The purpose of this introduction is to set forth the passages, which form the basis of the study to which the following pages are devoted. The title which has been chosen gives a clear indication of the nature of these passages, and the accompanying list reveals their frequency in the epistles of Paul. This frequency, combined with their similarity in structure and language, justifies the attempt to group the benedictions and doxologies, and to place them in a wider sphere than that of their immediate context in Paul's epistles.

It is also necessary to keep one distinction clearly in mind. The passages to be discussed must be distinguished quite sharply from those rhetorical passages which often occur at the end of a section of Paul's letters, and which are sometimes expressed in exalted language similar to that of doxologies, e.g., Rom. viii, 38, 39 ; i Cor. iii, 22, 23 ; 1 Cor. xv, 55-57; 2 Cor. iv, 16-18; vi, 16-18, etc. These passages belong essentially to Paul's style; they are a continuation and culmination of the preceding verses. They show large variations and often the effort for an effective climax, but they have not the character of doxologies, for these are to a large extent independent of their context.[13n1]

For the sake of clarity, the passages to be discussed are arranged in the following order:

At the opening of each letter a wish is expressed,

… Rom. i, 7; 1 Cor. i, 3; 2 Cor. i, 2; Phil, i, 2; 2 Th. i, 2; Phm. 3; Eph. i, 3; Gal. i, 3.
… Col. i, 2.
... 1 Th. i, 1. (This was also increased to the usual formula in some MSS. notably א. A.)

At the end of each letter is a benediction, and these show greater variations.

[14] ... 1 Th. v, 28
... 2 Th. iii, 18.
… Rom. 16, 20.
… Gal. vi, 18
… Phil. iv, 23; Phm. 25.
… Col. iv, 18.
… 1 Cor. xvi, 23, 24.
… 2 Cor. xiii, 13.
… Eph. vi, 24.

In addition to these, similar formulas are also found in other parts of the Epistles.

... Rom. xv, 23.
… 2 Cor. xiii, 11.
… Phil, iv, 9.
... 2 Th. iii, 16.
... Rom. xv, 13.
... Phil. iv, 7.
... Eph. vi, 23.
... 2 Th. ii, 16, 17.
... 1 Th. iii, 12, 13.
… [15] 1 Th. v, 23.
... 2 Th. iii, 5.
... 1 Th. iii, 11.
... Rom. xv, 5, 6.

All these passages may be included under the term "benedictions" or "blessings," though it is evident that some of the phrases lie outside this description. This leads us also to the inclusion of several other passages from the epistles of Paul, which are of rather a different nature from those mentioned above, and yet contain characteristics so similar that they must be brought into consideration.

These passages are as follows :

... 2 Cor. i, 3.
... Eph. i, 3.
... Rom. ix, 5.
... 2 Cor. xi, 31.
... Rom. i, 25.
... Gal. i, 2-5.
...
[16] ... Rom, xvi, 25-27.
... Eph. iii, 20-21.
... Rom. iv, 17.
... I Cor. viii, 6.
... Rom. xi, 33-36.[16n1]
... Eph. iv, 6.
... Phil, iv, 19, 20.

Though these passages contain many differences, their common characteristics are sufficient to bring them under the one title of doxologies.

It may be remarked here that 2 Th. and Eph. have been included, not because they are regarded necessarily as of Pauline authorship, but because the benedictions and doxologies in these two letters are so similar to those of the other letters, that they may be considered together.

A further remark is also necessary concerning the intention of this study. It is not intended to discuss the general subject of praise and blessing in all its manifestations in the religious life, but only as that subject finds expression in passages which may almost be described as of the nature of liturgical formulae. The given phrases have been selected from the epistles because at a first glance they show themselves to be self-contained formulae of blessing or [17] praise. It is often possible to remove them from their context without materially altering the sense of the whole passage, and often they do not seem to have any particular connection with, or to have grown out of the preceding section.

A closer analysis of the benedictions and doxologies, and of their position in the letters of Paul will reveal this more clearly, and will also lead to the discussion concerning their significance.

13n1) 1 Cf. R. Bultmann, Der Stil der paulinischen Predigt und die kynisch-stoische Diatribe, p. 52.

16n1) These sentences are actually a rhetorical conclusion to this section of the letter to the Romans (chaps. ix-xi), but the final phrases form a doxology and hence they are included. [pages 13-17]

I think I will be spending the next few posts examining the passages indicated above. I think this will be both interesting and informative.

DCH

DCHindley

The OCR program used by the scanner of that file was not very good, so the Greek was of course illegible and some passages scanned incorrectly. Correcting a few errors, here are the passages as categorized by Champion:

At the opening of each letter a wish is expressed:

RSV Romans 1:7 To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT Romans 1:7 πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις, χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV 1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT 1 Corinthians 1:3 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV 2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT 2 Corinthians 1:2 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV Philippians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT Philippians 1:2 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV 2 Thessalonians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God [the] Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT 2 Thessalonians 1:2 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς [ἡμῶν] καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV Philemon 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT Philemon 1:3 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,	BGT Ephesians 1:3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,
RSV(mod) Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ,	BGT Galatians 1:3 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
RSV Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.	BGT Colossians 1:2 τοῖς ἐν Κολοσσαῖς ἁγίοις καὶ πιστοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ, χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν.
RSV 1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God [the] Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace [+ from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ in א & A].	BGT 1 Thessalonians 1:1 Παῦλος καὶ Σιλουανὸς καὶ Τιμόθεος τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ Θεσσαλονικέων ἐν θεῷ πατρὶ καὶ κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ, χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη [+ ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ in א & A].

At the end of each letter is a benediction, and these show greater variations:

RSV 1 Thessalonians 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (be) with you.	BGT 1 Thessalonians 5:28 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν.
RSV 2 Thessalonians 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (be) with you all.	BGT 2 Thessalonians 3:18 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.
RSV Romans 16:20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (be) with you.	BGT Romans 16:20 ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν.
RSV Galatians 6:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (be) with your spirit, brethren. Amen.	BGT Galatians 6:18 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ τοῦ πνεύματος ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοί• ἀμήν.
RSV Philippians 4:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (be) with your spirit.	BGT Philippians 4:23 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ τοῦ πνεύματος ὑμῶν.
RSV Philemon 1:25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (be) with your spirit.	BGT Philemon 1:25 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ τοῦ πνεύματος ὑμῶν.
RSV Colossians 4:18 I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. Remember my fetters. Grace (be) with you.	BGT Colossians 4:18 Ὁ ἀσπασμὸς τῇ ἐμῇ χειρὶ Παύλου. μνημονεύετέ μου τῶν δεσμῶν. ἡ χάρις μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν.
RSV 1 Corinthians 16:23 The grace of the Lord Jesus [be] with you. 24 My love (be) with you all in Christ Jesus.	BGT 1 Corinthians 16:23 ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν. 24 ἡ ἀγάπη μου μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
RSV 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of [the] Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (be) with you all.	BGT 2 Corinthians 13:13 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.
RSV Ephesians 6:24 Grace (be) with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with love undying.	BGT Ephesians 6:24 ἡ χάρις μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἀγαπώντων τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ.

In addition to these, similar formulas are also found in other parts of the Epistles. All these passages may be included under the term "benedictions" or "blessings," though it is evident that some of the phrases lie outside this description.

RSV Romans 15:33 The God of peace be with you all. Amen.	BGT Romans 15:33 Ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν, ἀμήν.
RSV 2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Mend your ways, heed my appeal, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you.	BGT 2 Corinthians 13:11 Λοιπόν, ἀδελφοί, χαίρετε, καταρτίζεσθε, παρακαλεῖσθε, τὸ αὐτὸ φρονεῖτε, εἰρηνεύετε, καὶ ὁ θεὸς τῆς ἀγάπης καὶ εἰρήνης ἔσται μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν.
RSV Philippians 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.	BGT Philippians 4:9 ἃ καὶ ἐμάθετε καὶ παρελάβετε καὶ ἠκούσατε καὶ εἴδετε ἐν ἐμοί, ταῦτα πράσσετε• καὶ ὁ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἔσται μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν.
RSV 2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in all ways. The Lord (be) with you all.	BGT 2 Thessalonians 3:16 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ κύριος τῆς εἰρήνης δῴη ὑμῖν τὴν εἰρήνην διὰ παντὸς ἐν παντὶ τρόπῳ. ὁ κύριος μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.
RSV Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.	RSV Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
RSV Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.	BGT Philippians 4:7 καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ θεοῦ ἡ ὑπερέχουσα πάντα νοῦν φρουρήσει τὰς καρδίας ὑμῶν καὶ τὰ νοήματα ὑμῶν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
RSV Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God [the] Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT Ephesians 6:23 Εἰρήνη τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς καὶ ἀγάπη μετὰ πίστεως ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV 2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.	BGT 2 Thessalonians 2:16 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς καὶ [ὁ] θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν ὁ ἀγαπήσας ἡμᾶς καὶ δοὺς παράκλησιν αἰωνίαν καὶ ἐλπίδα ἀγαθὴν ἐν χάριτι, 17 παρακαλέσαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας καὶ στηρίξαι ἐν παντὶ ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ ἀγαθῷ.
RSV 1 Thessalonians 3:12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all men, as we do to you, 13 so that he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.	BGT 1 Thessalonians 3:12 ὑμᾶς δὲ ὁ κύριος πλεονάσαι καὶ περισσεύσαι τῇ ἀγάπῃ εἰς ἀλλήλους καὶ εἰς πάντας καθάπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς ὑμᾶς, 13 εἰς τὸ στηρίξαι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀμέμπτους ἐν ἁγιωσύνῃ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ, [ἀμήν].
RSV 1 Thessalonians 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς, καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη.
RSV 2 Thessalonians 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.	BGT 2 Thessalonians 3:5 Ὁ δὲ κύριος κατευθύναι ὑμῶν τὰς καρδίας εἰς τὴν ἀγάπην τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ εἰς τὴν ὑπομονὴν τοῦ Χριστοῦ.
RSV 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you;	BGT 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ ἡμῶν καὶ ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς κατευθύναι τὴν ὁδὸν ἡμῶν πρὸς ὑμᾶς•
RSV Romans 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.	BGT Romans 15:5 ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς ὑπομονῆς καὶ τῆς παρακλήσεως δῴη ὑμῖν τὸ αὐτὸ φρονεῖν ἐν ἀλλήλοις κατὰ Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν, 6 ἵνα ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐν ἑνὶ στόματι δοξάζητε τὸν θεὸν καὶ πατέρα τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

This leads us also to the inclusion of several other passages from the epistles of Paul, which are of rather a different nature from those mentioned above, and yet contain characteristics so similar that they must be brought into consideration:

RSV 2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,	BGT 2 Corinthians 1:3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ πατὴρ τῶν οἰκτιρμῶν καὶ θεὸς πάσης παρακλήσεως,
RSV Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,	BGT Ephesians 1:3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,
RSV Romans 9:5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.	BGT Romans 9:5 ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
RSV 2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie.	BGT 2 Corinthians 11:31 ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οἶδεν, ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ὅτι οὐ ψεύδομαι.
RSV Romans 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.	BGT Romans 1:25 οἵτινες μετήλλαξαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ψεύδει καὶ ἐσεβάσθησαν καὶ ἐλάτρευσαν τῇ κτίσει παρὰ τὸν κτίσαντα, ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
RSV Galatians 1:2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Galatians 1:2 καὶ οἱ σὺν ἐμοὶ πάντες ἀδελφοὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις τῆς Γαλατίας, 3 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 4 τοῦ δόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, ὅπως ἐξέληται ἡμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος πονηροῦ κατὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν, 5 ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.
RSV Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages 26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith -- 27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.	BGT Romans 16:25 [Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου, 26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ᾽ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος, 27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ, διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.]
RSV Ephesians 3:20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Ephesians 3:20 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑπὲρ πάντα ποιῆσαι ὑπερεκπερισσοῦ ὧν αἰτούμεθα ἢ νοοῦμεν κατὰ τὴν δύναμιν τὴν ἐνεργουμένην ἐν ἡμῖν, 21 αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.
RSV Romans 4:17 as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations" -- in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.	BGT Romans 4:17 καθὼς γέγραπται ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε, κατέναντι οὗ ἐπίστευσεν θεοῦ τοῦ ζῳοποιοῦντος τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ καλοῦντος τὰ μὴ ὄντα ὡς ὄντα.
RSV 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.	BGT 1 Corinthians 8:6 ἀλλ᾽ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς δι᾽ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
RSV Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"	BGT Romans 11:33 Ὦ βάθος πλούτου καὶ σοφίας καὶ γνώσεως θεοῦ• ὡς ἀνεξεραύνητα τὰ κρίματα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀνεξιχνίαστοι αἱ ὁδοὶ αὐτοῦ. 34 τίς γὰρ ἔγνω νοῦν κυρίου; ἢ τίς σύμβουλος αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; 35 ἢ τίς προέδωκεν αὐτῷ, καὶ ἀνταποδοθήσεται αὐτῷ;
RSV Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.	BGT Ephesians 4:6 εἷς θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ πάντων, ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων καὶ διὰ πάντων καὶ ἐν πᾶσιν.
RSV Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Philippians 4:19 ὁ δὲ θεός μου πληρώσει πᾶσαν χρείαν ὑμῶν κατὰ τὸ πλοῦτος αὐτοῦ ἐν δόξῃ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. 20 τῷ δὲ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ ἡμῶν ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.

It is also necessary to keep one distinction clearly in mind. The passages to be discussed must be distinguished quite sharply from those rhetorical passages which often occur at the end of a section of Paul's letters, and which are sometimes expressed in exalted language similar to that of doxologies. These passages belong essentially to Paul's style; they are a continuation and culmination of the preceding verses. They show large variations and often the effort for an effective climax, but they have not the character of doxologies, for these are to a large extent independent of their context.

RSV Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.	BGT Romans 8:38 πέπεισμαι γὰρ ὅτι οὔτε θάνατος οὔτε ζωὴ οὔτε ἄγγελοι οὔτε ἀρχαὶ οὔτε ἐνεστῶτα οὔτε μέλλοντα οὔτε δυνάμεις 39 οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.
RSV 1 Corinthians 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future, all are yours; 23 and you are Christ's; and Christ is God's	BGT 1 Corinthians 3:22 εἴτε Παῦλος εἴτε Ἀπολλῶς εἴτε Κηφᾶς, εἴτε κόσμος εἴτε ζωὴ εἴτε θάνατος, εἴτε ἐνεστῶτα εἴτε μέλλοντα• πάντα ὑμῶν, 23 ὑμεῖς δὲ Χριστοῦ, Χριστὸς δὲ θεοῦ.
RSV 2 Corinthians 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. 17 For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.	BGT 2 Corinthians 4:16 Διὸ οὐκ ἐγκακοῦμεν, ἀλλ᾽ εἰ καὶ ὁ ἔξω ἡμῶν ἄνθρωπος διαφθείρεται, ἀλλ᾽ ὁ ἔσω ἡμῶν ἀνακαινοῦται ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἡμέρᾳ. 17 τὸ γὰρ παραυτίκα ἐλαφρὸν τῆς θλίψεως ἡμῶν καθ᾽ ὑπερβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης κατεργάζεται ἡμῖν, 18 μὴ σκοπούντων ἡμῶν τὰ βλεπόμενα ἀλλὰ τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα• τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια.
RSV 2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you, 18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."	BGT 2 Corinthians 6:16 τίς δὲ συγκατάθεσις ναῷ θεοῦ μετὰ εἰδώλων; ἡμεῖς γὰρ ναὸς θεοῦ ἐσμεν ζῶντος, καθὼς εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι ἐνοικήσω ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ ἐμπεριπατήσω καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῶν θεὸς καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μου λαός. 17 διὸ ἐξέλθατε ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν καὶ ἀφορίσθητε, λέγει κύριος, καὶ ἀκαθάρτου μὴ ἅπτεσθε• κἀγὼ εἰσδέξομαι ὑμᾶς 18 καὶ ἔσομαι ὑμῖν εἰς πατέρα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἔσεσθέ μοι εἰς υἱοὺς καὶ θυγατέρας, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

DCH

spin

Below are all the references in Paul that talk about "glory" (δοξα). With one exception relating it to "the glory of christ" and a few to "the glory of the lord", glory is a prerogative of god. Given Paul's cultural context in which "god", "the father" and "the lord" were used for the Hebrew god, I see no reason not to assume that "the glory of the lord" is the equivalent of "glory of god" and that any glory going to Jesus is as a proxy for for god.

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[t2]Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1 Corinthians 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
2 Corinthians 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:20 For ye are our glory and joy.[/t2]

(The notable sore thumb here is 1 Cor 2:8, with its crucified "lord of glory"!)

Solo

The underlined phrase is translated from the Greek απο κυριου πνευματος, and forces Paul's text into a traditional Jewish / Christian formula. However, the literal translation is 'from Lord Spirit', with both nouns in genitive in a reverse order (i.e. ανο πνευματος (του) κυριου) from what one would expect if Paul intended express what the KJV translation says he did.

Most translations preserve the genitive binding of the nouns (starting with Vulgate a domini spiritu) which in English is commonly expressed as 'from the Lord which is the Spirit'.

Best,
Jiri

DCHindley

Hi Jiri,

One of the reasons that I prefer to use tables with a commonly accepted English translation (RSV/Brenton) and the Greek (GNT/Septuagint, all via Bibleworks) is because I want to demonstrate how difficult it is to analyze the books of NT from a translation.

With the re-ordering of word phrases and whole clauses, plus adding words (like those damn definite articles) without notice to "enhance" comprehension (at least the KJV used to italicize these words, not so with most modern translations), etc. translators unintentionally inject their own theology into the translation.

Those lurkers who have absorbed even a modicrum of Greek, will notice these kinds of things abound in the greater number of the passages cited in my earlier posts. Once you get beyond the strange alphabet, which is actually not too far from Roman letters, one realizes just how many English words and turns of phrase are based on NT Greek.

Gotta take my son to Sunday School (his mom's idea).

DCH

DCHindley

Should one ever be so bold as to put the passages below under a microscope, and convert the ET to conform to the GNT word for word, clause for clause, you get this:

Verse	Grace	From whom	Added phrase?
Rom 1:7	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:3	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:3	Blessed be	the God and Father	of the Lord of us Jesus Christ
Phi 1:2	Grace to you and peace	from God the Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:2	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us
1 The 1:1	//Grace to you and peace//	//in God [the] Father//	//and [the] Lord Jesus//
2 The 1:2	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
Phm 1:3	Grace to you and peace	from God [the] Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.

What troubles me is the "and" in the final column. This is a common preface for an insertion of material into an existing phrase (the other one is "for"). Note that four passages deviate from the "norm" here: Ephesians 1:3 (starts with a blessing to God and not to the recipiants, the connective "and" is used in the "from whom" clause, "of us" is transferred from God to Jesus, and the definite article is added to "Lord"), Phillipians 1:2 (adds definite article to the "from whom" clause), 2 Thessalonians 1:2 (omits "of us" in the "from whom" clause) and especially 1 Thessalonians 1:1 (which is totally scrambled up, though still conforming to the phraseology with the exceptions of omitting "of us" in the "from whom" clause and "Christ" in the final clause).

DCH

PS: Because the "from whom" clause is literally "God Father", no Herman Cain or Marlon Brando jokes allowed please.

DCHindley

The benedictions also fall into patterns:

1 The 5:28	The grace	of the Lord of us	Jesus Christ	(be) with you.
2 The 3:18	The grace	of the Lord of us	Jesus Christ	(be) with all of you.
Rom 16:20b	The grace	of the Lord of us	Jesus Christ	(be) with you.
Gal 6:18	The grace	of the Lord of us	Jesus Christ	(be) with the spirit of you.
Phi 4:23	The grace	of the Lord	Jesus Christ	(be) with the spirit of you.
Phm 1:25	The grace	of the Lord	Jesus Christ	(be) with the spirit of you.
Col 4:18c	(The) Grace			(be) with you.
1 Cor 16:23a	The grace	of the Lord	Jesus	[be] with you.
1 Cor 16: 24	My love		// in Christ Jesus//	(be) with all of you …
2 Cor 13:14	The grace	of the Lord	Jesus Christ …	(be) with all of you.
Eph 6:24	(The) Grace	//the Lord of us//	//Jesus Christ//	(be) with all who love //// with love undying

I wonder if this tells us anything about possible redaction history. "Grace" means essentially "undeserved kindness".

If one takes "of the Lord of us Jesus Christ" (the dominant form) as a unit, it can be taken as nothing more than a standard blessing of Pauline Christ-believing congregations, which is what most are happy to assume.

However, if "Jesus Christ" is taken as a redactional addition applied more or less consistently, could "the lord of us" actually refer to someone else? I would suggest the master of the household which patronized the congregation (Paul is constantly reminding his followers that obeying their earthly masters and working hard at it is what inclines their masters to graciously grant privileges to them). It might refer to God himself in the titular sense, but I have already noted that this is relatively rare in the corpus generally.

Another alternative would be to consider the phrase "of the Lord of us Jesus Christ" as a redactional addition, making the original form, as in Col 4:18c, "(The) Grace (be) with you" with the bestower of the grace simply assumed. This also might represent a household saying, where the circumlocution "in LORD" is omitted as understood by everyone.

DCH