gnosis92

was marcion of sippio the first anti-old testament critic? was he the first one in antiquity to list problems with the old testament that are pretty obvious in our time, in his lost work, the antithesis (but quoted by his adversaries esp. tertullian)?

a lot of people talk about the contradiction between the old testament and the new. marcion was the first to notice it. but was he the first to point out the problems of the old testament? how is it that generation of jewish rabbis presumably read the old testament and not e offended by it.

i've read it here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Itha...ntithesis.html

did any antiquity pagan or jewish rabbis were disturbed by the genocidal aspects of god as represented in the old testament?

i would imagine that non-jews non-christian pagans did not care to read the old testament in antiquity. somehow marcion read the old testament and came to conclusions that mirror thomas paine some 1500 years later.

Julian

Minor nitpick. Marcion was from Sinope, just like Diogenes. And speaking of the OT, Aquila Ponticus was also from Sinope.

Julian

Dargo

Wasn't Marcion a polytheist? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he believe that Jesus was sent by a new, merciful god to save the world from the wrath of the old, vengeful gods including Yahweh?

andrewcriddle

Marcion seems to have believed in two Gods.

The just but harsh God who created the world and was the source of the Old Testament and a stranger God who did not create the world or us but who out of sheer compassion sent Jesus to deliver us from the harsh justice of the creator God.

Andrew Criddle

Dargo

I wasn't quite right. I wonder why Marcionism was rejected by mainstream Christianity especially given how little use Christians have had for the Old Testament. Marcion, at least, invented a god who could actually be called merciful and made Jesus's sacrifice mean something. You have to wonder if Christianity would have been a nicer religion without all that brutal Old Testament stuff.

Julian

Indeed, Marcion seems to have understood the message that most christians preach but rarely live up to. He looked at the OT and clearly saw that this petty, vengeful god could not possibly be the real deal, so he rejected the OT. Andrew's brief description is pretty accurate, although it is worth noting that the true god and the demi-urge (the OT god) were not equals by any means.
Unfortunately, rejecting the OT was also his undoing, probably. With his rejection of the OT, he also rejected his claim to antiquity which was a necessary component in those days to have your religion differentiated from the myriad cults flourishing at the time. Even so, he was immensely successful and came very close to defeating the orthodoxy. If he had been successful, we would have a very different world today, probably a far better one. Ah, well...

Julian

Boro Nut

I don't know, I've never heard of him. Was he in My Favourite Marcion?

Boro Nut

robto

Back to the OP:

There were earlier gnostics, like Cerinthus and Basilides, both probably around 100 AD. Although it's hard to know dates accurately (given the limited data), let alone details about what these guys taught, it's probable that Marcion wasn't the first to reject the OT. Irenaeus says Cerinthus was a contemporary of John. He also lumps Simon, who is mentioned in Acts, with the gnostic "heretics", but what he knows is a later version of the Simon cult that he assumes represents the views of Simon himself. Acts doesn't say any such thing about Simon, in fact, it says "he believed and was baptised" (8:13), tho he then tries to buy the secrets of the apostles (8:18-19).

gnosis92

hi,
Marcion may not have been the first to reject the OT (according to marcion, that honor belongs to Jesus!!!!!) but he seems to be the first who wrote about it and reasons for doing so, in the antithesis. for example, do we have writings from simon magnus or cerinthus which critize the OT?

marcion like ideas reappeared in the peaceful cathars, who were exterminated, and in teh writings of people like gandhi, thomas jefferson, albert einstein, and thomas paine.

it surprises me christians continue to keep the OT given it is a liability, and they rarely use it or read it.

i do wonder if the marcion heresy had won out, maybe christianity would have been more peaceful, although perhaps destroyed by a militant islam. in marcions canon, there are no passages which justify wholesale murder as there is inthe christian bible.

i'd imagine the atheists here might be sympathetic with marcion's critique of the OT -- i am wondering why no jewish rabbi had thought along the lines of marcion, or, to be fair, it does not appear any christian thinker either.

marcion wrote:

"The title "God" is a vague one, and applied to other Beings as well; as it is written, " He standeth in the congregation of the mighty"; "He judgeth among the gods" (Psalm 82:1,6), "Ye are gods". Thus as the attribute of supremacy would be inappropriate to these, although they be called gods, so it is to the Creator."

The Jewish God is inconsistent, in respect of persons, sometimes disapproving where approbation is deserved; or else lacking in foresight, bestowing approbation on men who ought rather be reprobated, as if he either censured his own past judgements, or could not forecast his future ones.

With fickleness and improvidence he repented, or on some recollection of some wrong-doing, because the Creator actually says "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king" (1 Samual 15:11), his repentence in the sense of an acknowledgement of some evil work or error. This is also the case in the matter of the Ninevites, when the Book of Jonah (3:10) states,
"And God repented of the evil that he had said he would do unto them; and he did not."

The Jewish called out to Adam, "Where art thou?" as if ignorant of where Adam was; and when Adam alleged that the shame of his nakedness was the reason for hiding himself, the Creator inquired whether he had eaten of the tree, as if he were in doubt (Genesis 3:9-11).

In the case of Sodom and Gomorrha, he says "I will go down now, to see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come to me; and if not, I will know"; another instance of his uncertainty in ignorance.

The Jewish God was even mean enough in his very fierceness, when, in his wrath against the people for their consecration of the golden calf, he makes this request to Moses: "Let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make thee a great nation" (Exodus 32:10). Moses is better than his God, as the deprecatur and indeed, the averter of his anger, "For Thou shalt not do this; or else destroy me along with them" (Exodus 32:32).