Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-28-2005, 07:33 AM

Yes!

DramaQ · 06-29-2005, 12:39 PM

Seems to me like this is worthy of some more thought and comment.

Didn't anyone else find it interesting?

dq

Amaleq13 · 06-29-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DramaQ

Seems to me like this is worthy of some more thought and comment.

Didn't anyone else find it interesting?

I find it a very interesting speculation and I'm thinking about it.

andrewcriddle · 06-30-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DramaQ

Wait a minute, I want to make sure I’m understanding this. Are you saying that this could be an argument for an MJ?

That the imagery started out as a symbolic gesture of “consuming�? a spiritual being, but then later, after an historical figure was grafted on, this imagery became problematic.

That is: it was ok to discuss “consuming�? a spiritual being, but when the being became a person that talk suddenly became very creepy.

Is that about right?

dq

I don't think that in the early Christian period it worked like that.

People like Ignatius who emphasised the flesh and blood physicality of the incarnation appear to have taken the idea of the Eucharist as the body of Christ rather literally 'for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup which leads to unity through his blood'

It was people like Origen who saw the incarnation in a somewhat more spiritual way who regarded the Eucharist as symbolic rather than literal.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 06-30-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup which leads to unity through his blood'

What is literal about that phrase? Isn't it a completely theological, symbolic phrase? Why does anyone assume flesh and blood are literal?

andrewcriddle · 06-30-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What is literal about that phrase? Isn't it a completely theological, symbolic phrase? Why does anyone assume flesh and blood are literal?

There are other quotes from Ignatius eg 'To the Smyrnaeans' where heretics are criticised because

Quote:

They abstain from the Eucharist and prayer because they refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins and which the Father by his goodness raised up.

You may (plausibly) argue that this is also symbolic. If so could you give an example of what in the early church you would regard as Eucharistic literalism ?

Andrew Criddle

DramaQ · 06-30-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

You may (plausibly) argue that this is also symbolic. If so could you give an example of what in the early church you would regard as Eucharistic literalism ?

How about Justin Martyr First Apology 66?

Quote:

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Is it arguable that belief in a spiritual Christ is accompanied by symbolic language, and belief in an historical one has more definitively literal language about “flesh and blood�??

dq

Thomas II · 06-30-2005, 01:30 PM

My take on it is this:
BREAD and WINE were THE two most consumed elements of the Jewish diet of the time. Jewish people ate bread and drank wine every day with every meal.
The lesson is: let this be your daily reminder.
In my memory...
The lesson is:There is nothing more noble than he who gives his life for the sake of others,for the sake of one's truth...He knew he was going to die next.

Clivedurdle · 07-01-2005, 12:39 AM

Quote:

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Christ came to save the world. To do this he was incarnated as flesh.

Spirit became flesh, lived and walked amongst us, died (as flesh does) and to prove the marriage of heaven and earth we have the resurrection, as a type for everyone else to follow, our hope.

But none of this is real, it is an intellectual, symbolic and religious solution, a powerful one!

Has no one taken communion here? What do you think is going on? It is very satisfying psychologically to be partakers of the body and blood of Christ!

Thomas II · 07-01-2005, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Christ came to save the world. To do this he was incarnated as flesh.

Spirit became flesh, lived and walked amongst us, died (as flesh does) and to prove the marriage of heaven and earth we have the resurrection, as a type for everyone else to follow, our hope.

But none of this is real, it is an intellectual, symbolic and religious solution, a powerful one!

Has no one taken communion here? What do you think is going on? It is very satisfying psychologically to be partakers of the body and blood of Christ!

I don't know what to tell you...All this fleshhh and blooood thing is kind of creepy...
I never saw it like that...
More like..."Ok...It looks like this is gonna be our last meal together...
Tomorrow...It ain't gonna be pretty...Let's remember each other and the journey we lived together every time we part bread and drink wine...Let's remember ourselves together, just like we are now..."

From that to "partake of the fleshy flesh and the dripping blood"...

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06-28-2005, 07:33 AM	#21
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Yes!

06-29-2005, 12:39 PM	#22
DramaQ Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 236	Seems to me like this is worthy of some more thought and comment. Didn't anyone else find it interesting? dq

06-30-2005, 01:30 PM	#28
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	My take on it is this: BREAD and WINE were THE two most consumed elements of the Jewish diet of the time. Jewish people ate bread and drank wine every day with every meal. The lesson is: let this be your daily reminder. In my memory... The lesson is:There is nothing more noble than he who gives his life for the sake of others,for the sake of one's truth...He knew he was going to die next.

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