Johnny Skeptic

It is important to note that the texts say that “both sides� were aware that Jesus had supernatural powers. Matthew 12:24 says “But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, ‘It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.’" Today, both sides “are not� aware of God’s supernatural power. Therefore, the evidence now is not nearly as good as it supposedly was back then.

Regarding miracle healings, today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons at all for anyone to believe that it was any different back then.

Regarding the feeding of the 5,000, which is mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Christians have some problems. Consider the following:

1 - The texts claim that the disciples were aware of the miracle, but no mention is made that the crowd was aware of the miracle.

2 - The anonymous Gospel writers did not claim that they personally witnessed the miracle.

3 - The Gospel writers did not reveal their source(s), which might very well have been third hand or fourth hand.

4 - There is no evidence when the claim was first made.

5 - There is no evidence that the claim was widely accepted.

3. Where is God today?

Even "after" Jesus died, and even "after" the Holy Spirit had come to the Church, Acts 14:3 says "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands." In order to make my point more clear, the New International Version translates the verse as "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders."

It is a fact that there is much more need today of tangible confirmations of “the message of his grace� that can be reasonably attributed to God than there was in the 1st century with a supposed veritable plethora of eyewitnesses being available to offer first hand accounts of miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus.

Regarding the claims of 1) the feeding of the 5,000, 2) the feeding of the 4,000, 3) the numerous healings performed by Jesus, 4) the 3,000 people who became Christians after hearing teachings by Peter, 4) Matthew 4:24, which says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them," 5) 1st Corinthians 15:6, which says "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep," and 6) the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, if the claims were true there would have been no need for confirming “the message of his grace� with tangible signs and wonders.

Johnny Skeptic

Come on, Christians. What is your opinion of my opening post?

Chili

I really don't know about all the miracles, but then, I do not pretend to be a Christian so I do not need to know any of that.

In my story the apostles were the converted shepherds that were out herding sheep at night on the night Christ was born into the mind of Joseph, the upright Jew. This may have been high noon, but the fact is that it was the darkest point in his life and therefore were the shepherds herding sheep to leave the mind vacant and empty.

The sheep are the creations (knowledge or eidelons)) of Joseph and the shepherds were his strongholds here now recalled to become disciples to re-direct the efforts of his assets (knowledge) towards the betterment of mankind instead of just Joseph the wily carpenter. That is what the feeding of 5000 was about.

The rest? There must have been some unresolved mysteries in his (Joseph's)life and these have been addresses here. Syria wasn't exactly the promised land but was a land where promises were made.

I have no trouble with any of it but did not read much of it.