andrewcriddle

There has been discussion in several recent threads about whether or not a given text or group or person express belief in a 'mythical Jesus' ie a Jesus who's story takes place in some other world not in the physcal world we experience and inhabit.

What I would ilke to ask for are examples of Jesus-followers who explicitly and unambiguously regarded the Jesus they believed in as mythical in the above sense, before modern times

(explicitly and unambiguously in the sense that Ignatius of Antioch explicitly and unambiguously believed in a historical Jesus. Modern times means before the Reformarion)

The only clear example I can think of are some of the Cathars/Bogomils in medieval times who definitely regarded the Jesus they followed as mythical in the above sense.

I'm sure there are others but doubt if there are many.

Andrew Criddle

GakuseiDon

I've never heard of the Bogomils before. I googled them, and it seems that they believed in a historical Jesus, but regarded that He was actually a manifestation of the Archangel Michael. http://www.peacelink.de/keyword/Bogomils.php

How do you mean that they regarded Jesus as "mythical"?

Vorkosigan

This would show that....??

andrewcriddle

The Cathars are a Wetern European branch of the Bogomils who were originally Bulgarian but spread throughout the Byzantine Empire.

Some radical Cathar groups distinguished between a 'heavenly earth' and an 'earthly earth' and seem to have regarded most of the biblical events as having occurred in the 'heavenly earth', ie not in the earth we live in.

(Source Malcolm Lambert 'The Cathars' )

I agree most of the Cathars and AFAIK all the Eastern European Bogomils held a docetic rather than a mythical Christology.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

If 'mythical Jesus' views were widespread in the early Christian centuries then one would expect at least some explicit and unambiguous statements of such beliefs.

If as I think such explicit statements are very rare it is at least weak evidence against them being widespread.


Andrew Criddle

spin

Just so that I understand the terms of reference here, when Zeus came down and fertilized Leda in the form of a swan, is this considered "mythic" for you, the discussers (regardless the beliefs of the ancient Greek peasants)?


spin

lulay

so they did....because the Christian myth is such a rip off from pagan myth....of the ever dying everliving ever regenerating god-man of pagan myths

what the Hellenistic-Judeans did with the ancient pagan myth was try and create a differnt story where it 'seems' historical.
Though they had the piss taken out of them by various philosopher-pagans regarding their assurances of actual historicity for hwat is supposed to be understood mythically

Jedi Mind Trick

Of course, unless such references were expunged from the historical record for the purpose of presenting, or rather painting, an unbroken chain of "orthodoxy."

andrewcriddle

I would regard it as prima facie 'mythic' under the following conditions.

a/ It is seriously 'in some sense' believed rather than regarded as say a bit of entertaining epic poetry.

b/ It lacks any definite time when it is supposed to have happened.

If someone claimed that Leda was seduced by Zeus at Sparta around 630 years before the first Olympiad and 30 years before the beginning of the Trojan war, then I would need more evidence before deciding whether this is 'mythic' or legendary or just conscious fiction.

Andrew Criddle

Chili

No, they tied it to historic evidence so the followers might look for evidence but they kept it removed from the historical truth just far enough that they could not find the convincing evidence but kept looking and looking and looking until the end of time . . . if that ever came for them.

It's like the dating game whererin religion is the whore of Babylon and we are the tower builders trying to find favor with her.