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Old 01-20-2008, 04:30 PM   #1
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Default God's land promise to Abraham was not conditional upon good behavior.

God would never have told Abraham that the land promise was conditional upon good behavior when the good behavior issue would not make any difference at all until THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER when the Jews would finally occupy all of Palestine. So, Christians are going to have to come up with some other excuses why God did not give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant like Genesis 17:8 said he would.
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Old 01-22-2008, 02:44 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic View Post
God would never have told Abraham that the land promise was conditional upon good behavior when the good behavior issue would not make any difference at all until THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER when the Jews would finally occupy all of Palestine. So, Christians are going to have to come up with some other excuses why God did not give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant like Genesis 17:8 said he would.
First the bible makes clear , I read it recently, that is was conditional upon behaivor as to Israel getting and keeping thier land. In fact they lost their land because of character and went into exile.
Coming out of exile changed everything.
Or they will yet get cannaan.
Or the Canaan with Christ coming means something other then land.
Anyways you can't make a case here of unfillied promises.
Rob byers
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic
God would never have told Abraham that the land promise was conditional upon good behavior when the good behavior issue would not make any difference at all until THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER when the Jews would finally occupy all of Palestine. So, Christians are going to have to come up with some other excuses why God did not give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant like Genesis 17:8 said he would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
First the Bible makes clear,.......
But you do not know what the Bible is, or rather was. The Bible was a collection of original writings. No one knows which writings comprised the originals, and and how many times the originals have been changed.

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Originally Posted by Robert Byers
I read it recently, that is was conditional upon behaivor as to Israel getting and keeping their land. In fact they lost their land because of character and went into exile.
So are you saying the God punished Jewish babies because of their parents' disobedience?

Why does God cause animals to kill each other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
Coming out of exile changed everything.
Or they will yet get Canaan. Or the Canaan with Christ coming means something other then land. Anyways you can't make a case here of unfulfilled promises.
Nor can you make a case of fulfilled promises.

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

You have some unfinished business to take care of in one of my threads at the GRD Forum at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=234545. In my opening post, I quoted you as saying the following in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
Soul placement and practical cause and effect go hand in hand.
God doesn't prefer the English but only used those bodies to put his predetermined saved people in.

Actually I know Korea has many saved Christians (Evangelical and others) and so now those bodies are receiving the prepicked saced people.

Otherwise your making the great God the victim of randomness of births and how to place his chosen people. You would make him hustle in getting them the gospel to be saved if he had to work around the world. Why not just throw them all together in a few places and then a few missionaries take it from there. What would you do?

I would add this is why the English people became the most successful people in world history in matters of achievment in anything that matters.
Skeptics have been having a field day with what you said. The same thing is happening at the Evolution/Creation Forum in one of my threads at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=234228. The title of the thread is 'Tree rings,' a subject that you know nothing about but yet discussed tree rings. I quoted you as saying the following in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
The ice age would be some 400-500 years after the flood by tree rings found in fossils areas of a post flood world.
However, you do not know anything about tree rings or the mythical global flood. You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
Dates of old trees are probably wrong and at least not verified.
However, in my post #15, I provided lots of prominent conservative Christian sources who believe that the earth is old.

Now here is the clincher:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
I'm just saying that the boundaries of scripture dictate that tree rings can't go beyond some dates. So if there are very old dates claimed then they are wrong.
Now Robert, why did you say that at the Evolution/Creation Forum? What you said is a case for inerrancy, and does not have anything to do with science.

There is a thread at the Evolution/Creation Forum at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=228809 that is titled 'Hydrodynamic Sorting in the flood,' which is another topic that you know little of nothing about. Have you ever taken a college course in geology, or read a book about geology? You conveniently vacated that thread too in typical fashion.

In a thread at this forum at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=230621, which is yet another thread that you conveniently vacated, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Byers
The first and best evidence for Israel in Egypt is the Bible itself. It is a legitimate witness until proven otherwise to what it accounts. The Bible says this and that and so it is beholden on deniers to show it is false before it can be said not to be evidence for those who believe it.
Robert, I challenge you to start a new thread in any forum of your own choosing and use those comments as part of your opening post. If you don't, I will use those comments and start a new thread myself at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

Skeptics are eagerly anticipating your return to the threads that you conveniently vacated.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:08 AM   #4
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Be that as it may....it sure looks like 'god' screwed the pooch on this one.

2 Samuel 7

Quote:
1 "Now then, speak thus to my servant David, 'The LORD of hosts has this to say: It was I who took you from the pasture and from the care of the flock to be commander of my people Israel.
9
I have been with you wherever you went, and I have destroyed all your enemies before you. And I will make you famous like the great ones of the earth.
10
I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old,
11
since the time I first appointed judges over my people Israel. I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also reveals to you that he will establish a house for you.
12
And when your time comes and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your heir after you, sprung from your loins, and I will make his kingdom firm.
13
It is he who shall build a house for my name. And I will make his royal throne firm forever.
14
I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. And if he does wrong, I will correct him with the rod of men and with human chastisements;
15
but I will not withdraw my favor from him as I withdrew it from your predecessor Saul, whom I removed from my presence.
16
Your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before me; your throne shall stand firm forever.'"
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2samuel/2samuel7.htm

I guess "forever" meant a couple of hundred years?
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:24 AM   #5
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Why didn't Abe get the land that was promised to HIM?

Acts 7:4-5 (King James Version)
4Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

If God didn't make good on his promise to Abe, why do Christians expect he will make good on his promises to them?

Stuart Shepherd
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #6
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"God" is starting to look like your average politician with the broken promises.
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic View Post
why God did not give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant like Genesis 17:8 said he would.
I'm not an expert on Hebrew but IIRC the "everlasting" is a mistranslation the correct word should be "age lasting" Here is a different translation of the verse.

Quote:
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I am God Almighty;" walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God."
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:52 PM   #8
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The following is Genesis 12 from the Tanach

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Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee.

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

So Abram went, as HaShem had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shechem, unto the terebinth of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Ok, the Canaanites were in the land here before Abram. Doesn't God have a right to give land to whomever he chooses? He created the Earth in the first place ,right?
Quote:
And HaShem appeared unto Abram, and said: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land'; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, who appeared unto him.
Apparently Abram didn't have any children when this promise was made
Quote:
And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Ai on the east; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, and called upon the name of HaShem.

And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the South.

And there was a famine in the land; and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was sore in the land.
Well Abram leaves the land and goes down into Egypt. He left the land, does that make the promise invalid?
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:27 PM   #9
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Message to arnoldo: Why did God punish Jewish babies for their parents' disobedience?

During the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. Why did Goid allow that to happen?

If Jews had always been obedient to God, does that mean that he would never have killed any of them with hurricanes and earthquakes?
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:01 PM   #10
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http://bible.cc/genesis/17-8.htm


Well, let's see. Here's a whole bunch of translations...side by side.

Quote:
<< Genesis 17:8 >>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I am also giving this land where you are living-all of Canaan-to you and your descendants as your permanent possession. And I will be your God."

King James Bible
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

American Standard Version
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Bible in Basic English
And to you and to your seed after you, I will give the land in which you are living, all the land of Canaan for an eternal heritage; and I will be their God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God.

Darby Bible Translation
And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them.

English Revised Version
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Jewish Publication Society Tanakh
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'

Webster's Bible Translation
And I will give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land in which thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

World English Bible
I will give to you, and to your seed after you, the land where you are traveling, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. I will be their God."

Young's Literal Translation
and I have given to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, the whole land of Canaan, for a possession age-during, and I have become their God.'
Of 12 translations, 11 use the word everlasting, or perpetual, eternal or permanent. One says 'possession age-during' which, thus, seems to be the oddball version, doesn't it?
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