arnoldo

Because Daniel did.

Johnny Skeptic

Prove it.

arnoldo

The only thing I can prove to you is that the State of Israel is in existence this very moment. Can you prove that the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob doesn't exist?

Johnny Skeptic

Geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period. How about you? If you had been transported at birth back to China in 250 B.C., and were raised by Buddhists, and the community that you lived in was predominantly Buddhist, what would the odds have been that you would have heard about the God of the Bible? The correct answer is "zero." Today, what are the odds that a devout, Southern Bible Belt, fundamentalist Christian couple's son will become a fundamentalist Christian as compared with the odds of a son who is raised by Muslim parents in a remote region of Afghanistan becoming a fundamentalist Christian?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, what are the odds that a much lower percentage of elderly skeptics would become Christians than younger skeptics, and that a much larger percentage of younger skeptics would become Christians than elderly skeptics, and that a much smaller percentage of elderly Christians would become skeptics than younger Christians, and that a much larger percentage of younger Christians would become skeptics, all of which are the case today? The correct answer is 100% because it is well-known that elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion? No loving God would go out of his way to mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Please answer this question: WHY DID GOD INSPIRE JAMES TO WRITE THAT IF A MAN REFUSES TO GIVE FOOD TO HUNGRY PEOPLE, HE IS VAIN, AND HIS FAITH IS DEAD?

If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics would be much lower than the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

Johnny Skeptic

But why did you claim that Daniel mentioned Alexander, and then say that you cannot back up what you claimed? Why didn't you just debate Israel and forget about Tyre and Daniel?

Yes, the state of Israel exists, but it does not fulfill the requirement in Genesis 17:8 that the Jews will occupy all of the land of Canaan. The Jews could not possibly restore a nation that they never had as required by Genesis 17:8. In addition, the partition of Palestine is a bona fide example of a self-filfilled prophecy.

Sugarhitman said:

I replied:

If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Palestians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, are you going to tell us that the U.N. would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestians, and that the U.S. would have approved of that? If so, where is your proof? If not, then I have proven that Jews would not occupy Jerusalem today if the Bible had not said that they would one day return to their homeland.

Since I have posted the preceding paragraph on a number of occasions, and since you and sugarhitman have continued to refuse to comment on it, I accept your concession of defeat.

No, no more than you can disprove that deism is true. It is not any more encumbent upon me to disprove Christianity than it is encumbent upon you to disprove deism.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Following your same line of reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would a fulfilled prophecy.

If the Jews did not occupy Jerusalem, but occupied other parts of Palestine, would you call that a fulfilled prophecy?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews?

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

If Jews were able to occupy all of the ancient land of Canaan, is it your position that God would stop killing them with hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? If not, then God could not possibly care about the safety, health, and well-being of Jews. If God's only intention is proving that he is powerful, he certainly does not have to partition Palestine in order to do that. There would be much better ways for God to accomplish that, such as creating a new planet.

Sheshonq

He doesn't have to.
He didn't make any claims to that effect.

Still having problems with that pesky "burden of proof" thing, aintcha?

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, how about you? If you had been transported at birth back to China in 250 B.C., and were raised by Buddhists, and the community that you lived in was predominantly Buddhist, what would the odds have been that you would have heard about the God of the Bible? The correct answer is "zero." Today, what are the odds that a devout, Southern Bible Belt, fundamentalist Christian couple's son will become a fundamentalist Christian as compared with the odds of a son who is raised by Muslim parents in a remote region of Afghanistan becoming a fundamentalist Christian?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, what are the odds that a much lower percentage of elderly skeptics would become Christians than younger skeptics, and that a much larger percentage of younger skeptics would become Christians than elderly skeptics, and that a much smaller percentage of elderly Christians would become skeptics than younger Christians, and that a much larger percentage of younger Christians would become skeptics, all of which are the case today? The correct answer is 100% because it is well-known that elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion? No loving God would go out of his way to mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Please answer this question: WHY DID GOD INSPIRE JAMES TO WRITE THAT IF A MAN REFUSES TO GIVE FOOD TO HUNGRY PEOPLE, HE IS VAIN, AND HIS FAITH IS DEAD?

If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics would be much lower than the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Even if God did cause the Partition of Palestine, which was unfair since if Jewish and Palestian history had been reversed, the U.N. would not have granted the Palestians control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate amount of land per capita, which proves that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy, and even if God helped Abraham persecute and murder the Canaanites, which was unfair, I would still reject him because he is immoral.