spin

I was really trying to ascertain why you were giving a forum member a hard time. What does it matter if a translation gives "human one" for υιος του ανθρωπου, instead of "son of man"? Which do you think would communicate more to an English reader?

I can't speak for the rest of the forum.

I can appreciate that, but I still don't understand why it was brought up in this thread.

That wouldn't make too much sense, would it? If you enjoy interacting here, why would you feel forced to withdraw permanently. The enjoyment is based on interaction. Withdrawing is cutting off your own nose. So don't kid me.

Sheshbazzar

Have you looked to see where it was brought up, and who brought it up?
In post #146 I did my level best to provide a polite and concise explanation of what was wrong with that usage,...
which information was evidently totally ignored without any thought, to continue in an erronous assertion.

This particular thread began with this request.
I took this as an invitation to share my personal thoughts and opinion regarding the CEB.

(I could hardly be expected to separate my thoughts from my opinions, nor my opinions from my thoughts)

This quickly proceeded to a discussion of thoughts on one particular CEB rendition. I quite naturally expressed my personal thoughts and explained why I thought as I did.

No one is under any duress to agree with any of my personal thoughts, and disagree they did, and at length.

In post # 129, I gave sweetpea7 a summary of my thoughts on the progression of the 'son of man' concept in Judaism, and its eventual development into the 'figure' presented in the NT texts, Closing that exposition of my 'thoughts' with this statement.
....and even provided a couple of links to further information on the subject for those who cared to investigate further. Again, I did not dictate what anyone else might choose to think on the matter.

In post #150 you chose to strongly criticize that summary, challenging multiple statements as being assertions. Yes they were, and they were my sincere thoughts and opinions on the matter.
This is a discussion forum where thoughts and ideas should be freely exchanged. It should not be expected that every single sentence need to be backed up with dozens of footnotes and links to expert opinions. My posts here are not intended to stand up as PHD dissertations.

The goal for me is to provide thoughts (and any necessary clarifications) that might motivate others to investigate the details and form their own informed thoughts and opinions.
It is always easy to marshal an attack upon another's ideas, thoughts, and opinions when they are openly and publicly laid out in a consecutive and orderly fashion.
I do not beat around the bush, I want people to get a grasp upon what happened, and where, when, and WHY it happened.
Which also has been my own most difficult challenge in a world filled with conflicting, and often willfully false information.

I have read almost everything you have posted in these Forums within the last eight years. (you were my mentor, and my 'hero')
You are very good at finding any faults or cracks in others thoughts, opinions, and arguments. And that is a good and necessary trait, one worthy of careful study and emulation by anyone seeking to increase their skills in critical thinking.
Interestingly though, I have never once come across a post of yours where you have summarized your own personal views or thoughts as to how, and by what processes, you think the NT writings came into being.
Saves one from a lot of explanation, or from ever having to publicly defend their thoughts.

I do not write in these Forums to engage in playing mind games with intellectuals. I am here to provide whatever assistance, and whatever help I am able, to the common man coming in, in providing them with fully natural explanations for the progression and development of religious thought, assisting them in developing the skeptical, and critical thinking skills needed to permanently escape the clutches of the tyranny of religion and superstition, and so also become able to likewise assist others.
So spin, I only ask that you attempt to make positive contributions to these discussions. If you have better knowledge of some subject, simply offer it. If you disagree with a thought being expressed on a particular subject, simply present your own personal thoughts on that subject, with whatever evidences you think supports your view. It is not necessary to humiliate others to make your points.
You can be certain that in my case, that if you have something to present that is persuasive, I will be persuaded.
You have in the past persuaded me of a good many things, and the evidence of that fact is a matter of public record right here in these Forums.
I don't think there has been a thread made here in years where when an exchange between us was made, that I have not publicly, and sometimes embarrassingly profusely thanked and praised you for the help you have given me.
You know it. I know it. and anyone who has read our exchanges knows it.

Now as to my willingness to cut off my nose. First, as you have observed I do (usually) enjoy interacting here. In fact, FRDB is the only religiously related forum I engage in. Indeed it would be a regretful thing for me to have to leave.
I pour my heart and soul into thse types of discussions, taking everything to heart, can't help it, its just the way I am.

However, and I am not asking for sympathy, life is what it is, and with the human factor, 'stuff' happens.
My wife is very concerned as to the amount of time, and the level of stress that I am subjecting myself to by my participation on this site, as for example last evening when I was on until 4:00 AM posting and engaging in research.
Last month I underwent angioplasty, and things did not at all go well.
What was supposed to be a simple half hour procedure, turned into a four hour operation, arrhythmia requiring the application of the paddles, six stents and six days of recovery in the ICU.
I am up and around now and I am doing well enought that I have good prospects of seeing another decade.......
If I don't kill myself.

And oh, I forgot to ask, what are your thoughts as to the value and the accuracy of the CEB?






.

sweetpea7

Sheshbazzar,

I am sorry to hear about your personal difficulties. I was trying to be helpful by clarifying some things about translating into different languages based upon my experience. Life is hard, and I do not see how it is worth making it harder over a disagreement over a translation of scripture. You do not have to like, accept, read, or have anything to do with the CEB. I am all for picking a translation that was done by scholars, is somewhat recent due to advances in scholarship, and tries to avoid sectarian bias, beyond that-- pick your favorite.

The reason I like the CEB, from what I have seen so far, is that it seems to make an honest attempt to be non-sectarian and concept-for-concept, rather than over literal or over interpretative translation. I agree that it is not an appropriate translation for a serious Bible student or for seminary/Divinity school. It is meant for the average American reader, and I believe a new translation is needed for that audience. The translators' goal was a 7th grade reading level--equal to USA Today. Literal translations tend to be at the 12th grade level or higher. Sad fact that the 7th grade reading level still only reaches a little past half of Americans. The remaining Americans have too low of a literacy level to even understand the CEB.

One last point, and again, this is said with all due respect and with the goal of merely being helpful...

Idioms from a culture 2000 years ago that changed meaning among its own users are difficult to translate. Knowing the language is not enough. Idioms depend on shared culture. A person can be an expert at Hebrew and not understand that idiom. The word for word translation just does not work for idioms.

The culture Jesus lived in 2000 years ago is just not accessible to us today, as is current Israeli culture. One can study all that is known about it, sure, but this was antiquity. It is possible that there are going to be some phrases or words in the Bible that it simply is not possible to be 100% sure what the meaning is or what meaning was intended. In those cases, we can depend on the best and most current scholarship, but even those scholars disagree with each other at times.

I have given my best effort to explain my thoughts here, and Sheshbazzar, I have read and contemplated yours. We may just have to agree to disagree and that is fine.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery,

Kristie

Iskander

Spinoza said this:
Spinoza
Tractatus-Theologico-Politicus
Chapter vII

Sheshbazzar

Thank you sweetpea for your kind post. Your comment regarding the CEB as being a translation composed for a 7th grade level reading audience is very enlightening.
And of course does align with my initial observation that the text seemed to be
I admit that the rest of my statements in that post reflected my distrust of, dislike of, and unveiled contempt for the Christian religion. Something I did not start out with.
I was raised in 'good' God fearing Church going family, but without going into long detail here, Christian attitudes, prejudices, dishonesty and sneaky actions, have over the decades managed to completely destroy my attachments to it or its teachings.

That aside, I can understand the need for simpler Bibles for the 'everyday' Christian, or those readers who simply desire an easier reading Bible that will allow them to investigate what all the hoopla's about.
As you mentioned the low reading skill here in America, you may note that I live in Appalachia (recently retired here) I have family members in their 40s and 50s living within a mile of me who admit that they are unable to read at all.
They all go to church, and the preacher tells them what the Bible says....by selected 'proof texts', and weekly sermons promising them the soon coming of The RAPTURE!
I can hardly express to you what a damaging influence this manner of preaching has inflicted upon these small communities collective psyche.
Many under its pervasive influence abandon any hope for ever improving their conditions in this world, they allow their housing to deteriorate till it literally rots into the ground.....it don't matter, The RAPTURE! and Jesus! are coming soon!

Young people fed this crap week in and week out, if they make it through High School, how do they even begin to discuss building a career or making any long range plans with their parents or family, when to even think of such a thing, is to be rebelling against that religious vision their family and community has been hammering into them on almost every day of their young lives.
No, for most it is far less stressful, and easier, no matter what it is they actually believe, to remain a part of their 'clan', recite that same old The RAPTURE! mantra, and stay put in poverty and ignorance and raise up yet another generations under the same sad conditions. And they are sold on 'the bill of goods' that this makes them better American citizens, and morally superiour to any who do not participate in or admire their wacko religious cult.
That is my thoughts and commentary on the manner of old time Christian religion that I see practiced around me ever day. I could add much more, and little would be positive or any endorsement of it.

Now, as to the reading and comprehension of our Hebrew Biblical texts, I really don't know what to say regarding these statements regarding its unreadability, certainly there are a few difficult passages and some obscure words that require looking up from time to time, particularly when Hebrew is not ones native language
The peculiar circumstance of my life set me studying Hebrew in my early 20s and I undertook the task of reading every word in the Torah in Hebrew. In that task I laboriously hand copied large portions of the texts, in most cases looking up every single word, and every instance I could find of it within the The TaNaKa texts to increase my grasp of the language. I should mention that at this time the Messianic congregation I was attending was very supportive of this effort, and on occasion I was welcomed to stand before the congregation and read or recite from sections of the TaNaKa for their entertainment, although none of them spoke or understood the language. But I did not fake it, studying night and day, every letter and every word to be worthy of the task and holding that honor.

What can I say further, many Jews read the Tanaka and are able to understand, and get the drift of what it is that they are reading.
What is it that makes people think that if a particular bird, or the name of particular species of tree is unidentifiable, that the entire text becomes unreadable?
Idiomatic peculiarities are harder to detect or understand, but usually not impossible if one sticks to it and continues to add to their vocabulary and knowledge of the peculiarities of usages, it is all of those seemingly 'useless', abstract, boring and 'worthless' sections of Biblical texts that when struggled with, yield the fruits of understanding, and sometimes it requires reading the same section of texts dozens of times over a span of years to see what it is that is concealed within it.
I believe that I can best express it this way, if you think that you can't read it, or that it cannot be read, then you never will be able.
But if you believe and have faith that it can be read, and that you can do so, the task will not prove impossible.
Like the Little Choo-Choo train saying; 'I think I can.......I think I can...think I can!

But one approaching these things needs the humility of a child, and acknowledge that you are only a child as yet unlearned, and to maintain a child's simple delight in learning.
I can well recall my childlike joy and pride on that day when I was finally able recite, write, and instantly recognise every letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
I began with writing English words with the Hebrew alphabet, then I began committing Hebrew words for common every day things to memory and mentally seeking to attach the the correct or best Hebrew term to whatever I was looking at. I even attached Hebrew word tags to household items so that I would think of them in Hebrew.
I read and read at every opportunity, and committed as much of the texts to memory as I could, and I mean every letter and inflection.
Just like one would set out to learn any other language while yet living in a different culture and language.

Now I'm no walking dictionary of the Hebrew language (but then there are also thousands of English words that I hardly ever use, or am as yet unaware of, and oft need to look up a definition or a spelling, and there will certainly remain a good many I'll simply never know)
But I do have sufficient knowledge to flip open say the Book of Genesis and read either silently or aloud entire chapters without having need to resort to any reference materials.
And at each such reading it gets easier, and the 'ambiguities' become progressively less ambiguous. Maybe not all, but then my attitude is that it was never intended for any single person to understand or comprehend everything, or become the master of every mystery. Each of us is given the opportunity to posses our own little share of secret knowledge. Ten thousand things I could tell, but others simply cannot receive.

So anyway, I can hardly agree with anyone who makes the claim that the Hebrew texts are unreadable.

sweetpea7

Shesbazzar,

My parents are from Marietta, Ohio, and I have an uncle and cousins in Logan, Ohio. I lived in Logan and attended high school there for one year. As I am sure you know, those cities are in the Appalachian part of Ohio. It is sad to see the extent of poverty there. Education in low, job opportunities nearly non-existent, but there is a church on every corner. One of my cousins is in prison there for drugs. My other cousins who remained there live in poverty. It is beautiful there, but I think it is nearly impossible to escape poverty unless one moves away from the area at least for a while. You are completely right in that people focus on "the rapture" or heaven to numb the pain of this life and avoid trying to change it. Marx did call religion the "opiate of the people".

I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist church. I can understand your frustration with Christianity,although I do not have anger on the level that you seem to. When I was a teenager, I was a fundie and thought I was going to figure it all out. I was going to read the Bible, and I did. I read the KJV and then the NIV. It caused my deconversion.

The older I got, the more I realized that most Christians did not really think about what they believe. They base their entire lives on a book(s) they do not and, in some cases, cannot read. That is sad to me. It's really all based on what their preacher says, and insisting on the KJV keeps a lot of the people, especially many of those in Appalachia with low literacy skills, in the dark. The Bible seems mystical and powerful to them. I consider it simply immoral.

My view is that any adherents of any religion should have the right and ability to fully understand what they are signing on for, and being able to read the Bible gives them a chance to do that. It is only fair. Even to open a credit card or take out a loan people have to read the terms. How much more so should people investigate a belief system on which to base their entire life and moral system!

I commend you on the amount of effort and how much you have achieved in your ability with the Hebrew language. I will be interested to read your posts in the future, so I hope that you do not stop participating here. Even if we should disagree at times, I believe that we can learn from each other.

Sheshbazzar

Thank you sweetpea. We do share a lot of common ground in our views. Likely that is the reason that we are both here.
As each of us have had our own unique life experiences, and by nature always view its differing scenes from different perspectives, take note of and recall different things, usually in different 'states of mind', being either among the participants, or among first hand witnesses, or as 'observers' from a distance.

Being married for 42 years (today!) to my HS sweetheart, closest companion and best friend in this entire world, this has been demonstrated to me tens of thousands of times.
A simple trip to the store, attending a flea market, or watching a nice parade side by side, and upon our departure we begin to recall and discuss what we have seen, experienced, and thought about it.
Now we are about as close together and as compatible as any two people of different sexes can possibly be. But Oh! how often we will disagree on exactly what it was that we saw, or experienced, or what we thought about it.

For example, A short while back on our narrow mountain road a pickup coming at us crossed the center-line, forcing us to take extreme evasive action, we missed a head on collision by 'the skin of our teeth' and said pickup disappeared over the hills.
Within 2 minutes time we were engaged in a heated exchange over exactly what color that pickup had been!
I had seen a black pickup, and she insisted that she had seen a white pickup!!! Now neither one of us would ever willfully lie to, or attempt to deceive the other over such a simple thing, and to this day if the subject comes up we each give our own version, but we have learned to just smile and share a chuckle about it.
Today; 'black!' or 'white!' who will ever know? Obviously one of us has to be wrong. Which? we'll never know.

So yes, it is going to be entirely natural and common human experience, that there are going to be many things that we will disagree on, or will not see eye to eye about.
But nonetheless, it is good to share our thoughts, as often that additional perspective will make the picture clearer to all who participate. As with our mutual observations here on how the conditions of poverty and religion in the Appalachians do go hand in hand, the one always feeding and contributing to the furtherance of the other.
We disagreed, but I doubt either of us were disagreeing simply for the sake of being disagreeable, just honestly presenting and defending our thoughts and our own unique personal perspectives.
It is my hope that we can both still be here ten years from now, howbeit most likely still disagreeing over this and that.




.

avi

Thank you, DCH. yes, I should have read more extensively, there exist then, both the stone relief, and the temple to Zeus Kurios.

About the calendar:
The problem is the text. Clark Hopkins perhaps, intended readers to understand the process which you have described, i.e. converting from whatever is actually inscribed, to the common era date of 31.

The date reported by Hopkins may well have been accurately computed. Our problem is this: Hopkins does not clarify that this date he has presented to the readers represents a computation derived from the original date, chiseled into the stone relief.

This is a thread about potential mistranslation. I appreciate Toto's illustration, disproving my contention that Greeks, living a couple thousand years ago, writing Koine Greek, invariably described Zeus, Jupiter, et al, as theos, not kyrios. Toto has convincingly demonstrated that at least in one circumstance, some stone mason, literate in Aramaic, and possibly bilingual, employed kyrios, not theos, to describe Zeus, or at least, a Semitic flavour of Zeus.

Palmyra may possess many other illustrations of the same sort. It may be then, incorrect, on my part, to insist that ancient, literate, native Koine Greek speakers invariably wrote the word theos (and not kyrios) to describe their supernatural gods.

I still believe, however, that it is important:

a. to search this question, i.e. has Toto detected a single aberrant illustration, or is this example from Dura Europos, consistent with a general pattern displayed by a wide variety of native Greek intellectuals and writers, two millenia before present?

b. to realize that a literal reading of Hopkins' text, does not make sense. There is no possibility that the stone mason could have carved AD 31 into any rock, in the year CE 31. If Hopkins has exaggerated his description of what he has observed, i.e.what is chiseled into the rock, here in this simple paragraph, then, where else in his text, could there be similar imprecision, or over-generalization, or misleading information?

avi

spin

For my purposes, ie non-recreational purposes, it doesn't offer the literal accuracy I need. I'm sure others might find it communicative and comforting.

hjalti

I personally wouldn't trust it, after all it's a translation made by christians. They're sure to bend and break the text to fit their theology.

Just look at this, 1 cor 5:5,
I await the opinion of spin, but I doubt that the sarx refers to "human weakness" when contrasted with spirit. I would think that sarx refers to the body, as opposed to the spirit. And these christians might not like it because:

1. handing somebody over to Satan to "destroy his flesh/body" sounds nasty.
2. it seems to teach non-bodily resurrection.