Originally Posted by Gracchus

In point of fact, it was foxes.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox

:wave:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Still waiting for a response from praxeus. Hope springs eternal within the human breast.

RED DAVE

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Yes, this date of 4500 years back does present a problem. No doubt it
came from the "young earth" advocates. If the earth is 6000 years old,
then the flood would have to be < 6000 years ago. I do happen to
believe in the universal flood, but I would have a difficult time
dating it, to my own satisfaction. I believe I have heard somewhere
that the civilization which produced the Sphynx, thought to be the
oldest man made "structure", was very different than the culture which
produced the Egyptian pyramids, 1000s of years later. If you're looking
for a "gap", this could be it. Something interesting about the account
of the flood, is that it's one of the few Biblically recorded events,
which has HUGE support from many other cultures as well. I've borrowed
the following information:

************************************************** ********
It is true that the Genesis flood account shares many striking
similarities with the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic - and with the
Babylonian Atrahasis epic, for that matter. In fact, literally hundreds
of flood traditions have been preserved all over the world, with
traditions abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, as well as
both of the Americas, and the Genesis account shares similarities with
most of them. Of the flood traditions which have survived up to the
present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell
of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the
human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the
coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and
70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and
animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions
mention birds being sent out from the boat.
Since every culture would have descended directly from the flood’s
survivors, stories of this traumatic event ought to be both abundant and
universal, having been passed down from generation to generation.
Indeed, flood traditions are both abundant and universal. Many of these
traditions are remarkably consistent, considering the relative
isolation of the cultures, the length of time that has elapsed since
the flood, and the human tendency to embellish, exaggerate, and distort
stories over time. The Babylonian and biblical accounts of the flood
appear to represent different retellings of an essentially identical
flood tradition.
************************************************** ********

Since I'm new to this discussion site, I realize that this info may be
a rerun for you guys, so forgive me if it is

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Okay, I guess I would have to begin with the easiest
item to produce reasonable evidence. The idea of many
cultures, with a similar story of a universal flood.
Remember that I cannot date it, as some others try
to do. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened a
million years ago. So don't assume any dates when
looking at other accounts. Needless to say, if you
already have decided it never happened, then no
evidence of any kind will convince you otherwise. All
I'm presenting here is that if it never happened at
all, why the many different accounts from all over.
It's not your typical "normal" event, like a volcanic
eruption, or earthquake or hurricane. Using the
"reasonable person" litmus test, would an average guy,
when asked about cataclysiums that could happen, even
consider this possibility? And yet it's substantiated
by many different cultures. How can this be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

http://www.theology.edu/prehist2.htm (Sumerian account)

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

In case you hadn't noticed, we are talking about something
a bit larger than a river overflow. I'm aware that most
people know of "non universal" floods. You did verify one
point I made. There is no way you could have discovered and
read my new post, viewed the links, and created the reply
in 17 minutes. If you had read the URLs, you would have
possibly had some comment. So I guess you didn't, probably
because you aren't interested in anything which may support
my point. The flat earth business, obviously makes no real
point, but it does remind me of a cute saying we had back
in grade school - "if the earth was flat, you'd be the first
one to fall off"

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

I'm aware of the Black Sea creation theory, which has
pretty solid support. If you use the idea that localized
equals or becomes world wide, then there should also be
accounts of a world wide fire, which burned everything,
or volcano which wiped out the earth, or pestilence, or
earthquake, or wind etc. I haven't really researched
this, but it could support either pro or con, depending
on the findings.

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

(Here's a low, slow pitch - explain the worldwide distribution of marsupial mammals and the fossil evidence of their development in the context of a worldwide global flood that wiped out all but a few individuals of each species.)

This is actually easier to explain than one might think. Did anyone here
see the "Nova" episode about the experiment with the gray foxes
carried out in Russia (I think)? Basically, they interbred only the most
tame of the litters with one another. After about 4 generations, they
started to develope strange qualities, for a fox. Some were born with
spots on their fur, and some also "barked" like a dog. This occurred
only from whatever chemicals contribute to tame/docile behavior. From
this they developed the idea that ALL dogs are descendants of the wolf.
They believe that 15,000 years ago there were no dogs, but because
the wolf found it in it's best interest to befriend the human, (free food
in the trash pile) and perhaps other perks, it's chemicals changed enough
to produce the dozens of dog species we now have. I think this is
plausible, and it would explain how far fewer critters, of all types
could equate to what we currently have.

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

I'm not tremendously interested
in having everlasting points about how the flood couldn't be true at this
point. I just want one logical reason why we have many accounts of a
UNIVERSAL flood from many separated cultures around the world. (the
Black Sea event is the best explanation so far, my opinion)

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

I will check out the lengthy article listed below, and cross check some of
the stories. If they all sound as goofy as the first 3 or 4, then I cannot hold
my original idea of many accounts of the same event. I know that believing
in the flood as depicted in the Bible has some serious logistical problems. I'm
not saying there is no answer for these, but at present I don't have them
all. (Gee, what a surprise!) You guys, for the most part, are a class act .

************************************************** *******
Here is a definitive list of floods. Notice the incredible diversity of the stories. It is impossbileto attribute them to the same event.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Egypt