outhouse

Add to that the sheer volume of legends influenced in the OT from mesopotamian sources.

The knowledge we have of how Canaanites were obsorbed into Israel as well as semetic speaking Mesopotamians

Add the fact of other OT legends that have no historicity as written from these early legends.

Add to the fact was only see a slow migration into Israel starting in 1200 BC and almost no indication of a difference between these early settlers and Canaanite villages and pottery used between the two.

judge

The thing is Stephan. There are no 'events" of the exodus. No facts to show that an hebrew people underwent these episodes.

As far as we can tell, by looking at the facts it never happened.

Religious people who get told this from an early age, or who for one reason or another get caught up in religion belive these things because they are unable or unwilling to follow the evidence.
They can't bring themselves to challenge the religious authority (of the religious Egypt), fed to them.

You could go on your own "exodus", challenge Pharoah, follow the evidence, rather than being Pharoahs slave.

Then you would use this myth in a positive fashion, rather than confusing the metaphor with an historical story

judge

Of course not.
Everyone else is motivated by hate and resentment?
Lets face it, whoever doesn't believe in the exodus is probably anti semitic . Not merely that, they think in a similalr way to holocaust deniers too!

Other wise what else could you mean?

Normal rational people just follow the evidence. Religious people hope that maybe there is some historical truth to it.
You seem to be using the mythological stories of victimisation in a very unhealthy way IMHO.

stephan huller

My point isn't to argue that it is anti-Semitic to argue against Exodus. My point is to say that if you take Exodus to kill two birds with one stone. My experience has been that the members of this forum hate all religions equally.

outhouse

this get's to the followers of judaism, they hate when you tell them moses has no historicity. thinking that their Moshe is mythical sticks with them.

christians not as much but they dearly want to follow that literal interpretation it was never written for.

stephan huller

I don't know what the state of archaeology is with respect to the Exodus. But what are we looking for? The religious people want to prove the truth of the Bible and their inverted twins want to prove them wrong. Where does that leave the question of whether Ezra wrote a highly supernatural narrative about a historical event known to the world to have occurred in Egypt in a much earlier period? I don't know how you disprove that. But I am sure that when someone who hates black people hears a statistic that proves his presuppositions, he feels his worldview is vindicated. The same is true here.

'There is no archaeological evidence to support what is written in the Pentateuch.' Really? There is no sign of a column of glory guiding the people? No sign of a water being turned back while the people crossed out of Egypt? Wow, that's convincing. No signs of coke cans being ditched in the sand. Maybe we're talking about a Hyskos invasion, an implosion of Egyptian society and then refugees traveling into the Canaan. I don't know. I don't know what role the priest Manetho connects with Moses had in the development of the Israelites. But that doesn't mean that 'it was all made up.'

Manetho makes me feel that it is now up to you to disprove the universal acceptance in antiquity that the idea that Jews descendants of an Egyptian slave revolt in antiquity. It would have been more effective for the enemies of the Jews to argue as you do - i.e. it was all made up. They can't because the Egyptian priestly records supported the idea of Exodus having some foundation in history.

judge

I dont. I actually have seen religion have very humanising effect on some people. I try not to have any negative attitude towards it (not very well at times). Some aspects or religion though I believe to very damaging but I would not generalise about it.

Vorkosigan

LOL. This is the "historical kernel" approach that I have pointed out many times is completely unscholarly. The kernel can never be refuted because it is maintained on ideology and faith, not evidence and methodology. If it was "universally" maintained in Antiquity that the Jews had come out of Egypt, this was likely because the Jews had told everyone that, and they lived everywhere in the ancient western world.

It can't be refuted. All everyone can do is point out that there is no evidence for Exodus, and that the evidence suggests the hebrews had other origins, and wait for you to come around to evidence-based reasoning.

Vorkosigan

outhouse

first being a anti theist has nothing to do with valid historicity to a subject. it either has it, or it doesnt, or its in a degree of probablility.

in this case its a legend that may or may not have a historical core.

Its not just archeology, its scholarships and anyone with a education on the subject.

it falls into the same catagory as noahs global flood, the tower of babel and many other early legends.


Now its not all made up, some semetic speaking people did migrate from Egypt. there may have been a enslaved tribe who were not Israeli's with a leader who brought these people to Israel.

But the story was written never took place.



By taking a literal interpretation the beauty and glory that the original multiple authors that compiled these works together and later redacted to death is all lost.

It is the literal interpreters that butcher this story by missing the allegorical messages and parables.

Not the historians who only prove what is real and what happened and didnt happen

outhouse

No

I and others have clearly pointed out the large amount of evidence it never happened.