Diogenes the Cynic

What is your evidence that anything in the Bible was written under the inspiration of God? You don't actually expect this kind of argument to be taken seriously do you? In case you haven't noticed, this is an atheists' message board. Most of the people you're debating don't believe in God. Why would you expect us to believe in divine inspiration? Can you show us any empirical reason to believe that the book of Isaiah (or any other book in the Bible) had any kind of supernatural influence? You can't just say "it was magic" and expect that to be accepted as valid.
Yes, I know what duel prophecy is in theory. The problem is that I have yet to see any evidence that it exists in reality. I've never seen any evidence for any kind of predictive prophecy at all (as a real ability -- obviously people try), and I've never seen any demonstrated reason to believe that any of the OT authors had any "dual" intentions in anything they wrote.
Evidence that they are "under the Holy Spirit?"
Can you name a single demonstrable example of any OT prophecy being fulfilled at any time anywhere?

With all due respect, I think you mean well but I also think you're a little inexperienced at this kind of debate. You aren't going to get anywhere by citing doctrinal or traditional beliefs as though they were accepted facts. If you want to make a persuasive argument you have to prove every assertion and every step you make. That includes any and all claims of supernatural phenomena.
That kind of stuff doesn't work around here either. It doesn't scare us.

Sven

You see, citing Matthew supposedly quoting Jesus words does not help us in any way to determine if (the writer of) Matthew invented this concept to be able to "reuse" some OT prophecies, or if Jesus really said these words. Furthermore, even if Jesus said these words, if one prophecy can have double fulfillment, this is no way means that several (or even all) can have.

:huh:

Hello, somebody there? :banghead:
If a writer of the bible claimed that the prophesy is an example of double fulfillment, how on Earth does this prove that this is indeed the case and not that the writer is making it up to bolster his case? See above about Matthew.

Hello, somebody there? :banghead:
You can not use the second fulfillment of a prophecy to prove double fulfillment if the second fulfillment has not happened yet!
The simpler answer in this case would be that the prophecy failed. But I understand, you can not allow for this possibility.

Sorry, I fail to see these different time frames.
But even if those were there: Then these verses simply would be different prophecies (about different times), not one prophecy with several fulfillments. If I say: It'll rain tomorrow and in two years, this isn't a prophecy which will be fulfilled doubly, it's two different prophecies.

No, we only see that none of the above provided any actual argument.

What you need is an OT verse which says something like: "I prophecy this and that, but note that there will be a second fulfillment of my words."

Hint: If a prophecy was incomplete after its first fulfillment, the most simple explanation is that the prophecy failed.
But I understand, you can not allow for this possibility.

Then why you do this consistently?

The other way simply would be to use the plain words, realize that many prophecies failed, and be done with it. But I understand, you can not allow for this possibility.

That's the same way you can use to bolster prophecies of other religions, Nostradamus, astrology, etc.

BTW, thanks for giving your sources! :thumbs:

Sven

See, that's nice for you. And nobody claims any different.
The point about argueing about these things isn't to deconvert you (well, at least not for me), it's about weeding out false, uninformed claims.

gregor

Dio and Sven

When Carin says, in effect, 'regardless of what you say, regardless of the truth, and even if the entirety of the NT is shown to be a late fabrication, I'm not going to give up my irrational belief in my sky-daddy' it's really time to walk away.

Sven

Why? I think making her realize some of her errors about the bible is still worth the effort. As I said above, deconverting her isn't my goal.

If she wants to continue to believe in her god without (or even contrary) to the evidence, that's her problem.

JoeWallack

JW:
I Am going to use the same English transliterations you use above ("almah", "betulah") because I think the Standard scholarly transliteration characters would just confuse you.

In order to try and determine the meaning of the Hebrew word "almah" the best Category of evidence would be the Original or Hebrew language evidence. I think everyone would agree that Jewish Lexicons for the relevant time period make clear that "almah" means "young woman" and "betulah" means "virgin". In order to find a Lexicon with support for "almah" meaning "virgin" within its semantic Range you would have to look at Christian Lexicons.

Brown-Driver-Briggs is generally the Christian Lexicon of choice for Christian Bible scholarship. This is the Standard for the Seminary. Brown, Driver, and Briggs were all early 20th century Christian clergy and Jewish Bible scholarship would consider them biased. Here is their entry for "almah":

"�*עַלְמָה S5959 TWOT1630b GK6625 n.f. young woman (ripe sexually; maid or newly married);—ע׳ Gn 24:43 (J), Ex 2:8 (E), Pr 30:19 Is 7:14; pl. עֲלָמֹות ψ 68:26 Ct 1:3; 6:8; עַל־עֲלָמֹות to (the voice of) young women, either lit., or of soprano or falsetto of boys: 1 Ch 15:20 ψ 9:1 (read עַל־עֲלָמֹות לַבֵּן [for עַל־מוּת לַבֵּן, ‘voce virgines a pueris decantandum,’ Thes), 46:1; 48:15 (read עַל־עֲלָמֹות [for עַל־מוּת]; tr. prob. to 49:1)."

Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. 2000. Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. Strong's, TWOT, and GK references Copyright 2000 by Logos Research Systems, Inc. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor, WA


JW:
From the above we can see that:

1) Isaiah 7:14 is specifically categorized as "young woman".

2) Every Jewish Bible usage is categorized as "young woman".

3) There is no meaning of "virgin" given.

The link you provided gives the following as support for "almah" having a meaning of "virgin" within its semantic range:

"According to the Strong's Concordance it means, "virgin, young woman 1a) of marriageable age 1b) maid or newly married."

This is from:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...74426-976.html

"1) virgin, young woman

a) of marriageable age

b) maid or newly married"


JW:
This is a Concordance based on the KJV.

A Lexicon provides an Inventory of word meanings in the original language.

A Concordance provides an Inventory of word locations in the same language.

The problem with trying to use Concordances to determine the meaning of a word in the Original language is that it will include the Bias of the Translators. Therefore, you should be using a Lexicon to try and determine the original language meaning of "almah" and not a Concordance. I should add that Strong's Concordance is not sure itself whether it is a Concordance, Concordance/Lexicon or Lexicon. All the more reason to just use a Lexicon that is sure it's a Lexicon.

Once you've determined what the likely Original language meaning was based on Original language you can move on to using Unoriginal language as evidence even though this is an exponentially worse Category of evidence as you are subject to the Bias of Translators. If and when you get to this point an Objective analysis will show that "parthenos" was an Equivocal word at the time of Jewish Greek translations of the Jewish Bible, meaning "young woman" or "virgin". The mistake that many make at this point, including skeptics, is that you need to use a Lexicon for Greek literature in General at this time and not a Lexicon of early Christian literature as "parthenos" had a much stronger connotation of "virgin" within Christian lietarture than it did in Greek literature in general.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Carin Nel

I know that most of you don't believe in God or in the Bible as the Word of God, but I forget, because it is strange to me to discuss such issues with you, reading your quotes from the Bible and your interpretation of the verses and your continuous interest, questions and never-ending, tireless occupation with the subject. I also tend to forget that some of you were at some stage in your life Christians.
To answer your questions on prophecies and the Godly inspiration of the Bible will take time and maybe patience on your side, because this topic cannot be discussed and covered within one session. It will be a lengthy discussion, rather than a hard and fast answer.
This statement may come as a surprise to you, coming from a Christian, but everybody, including Christians, approach the Bible with baggage and agendas and lenses. It is a fact. To think that someone can just read the Bible without reading his/her own culture and background or issues into it and come out with a “pure” or “exact” meaning is not only untrue, but it leads to a very destructive reading of the Bible that robs it of its life and energy. The Bible has to be interpreted and decisions have to be made about what it means now, today.
The ancient rabbi’s called the particular understanding of the Bible, their interpretation of the Scripture, their yoke. One rabbi even said that His yoke was easy (Jesus in Matt. 11:30).To be able to bind or loose a yoke, a rabbi needed the blessing of 2 other rabbi’s with authority, before his interpretation would be accepted as the Truth, and the way God had intended it to be interpreted. Most rabbi’s taught the yoke of another well respected rabbi, so binding and loosing did not happen frequently.
This truth about interpreting the Bible extends all to the way to the simple reading of it in English. If we don’t read the Bible in its original Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic, then we are reading someone’s interpretation of the Bible. Some English words do not have an exact Greek, or Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent, leaving the translator with a challenge of how to best represent the text using English words. The “hell” (12 times in the Bible) is such a word. As in the times of the ancient rabbi’s, Christians in the NT and still today are discussing, examining, studying, arguing and making a decision as a group, a community about the interpretations of the Scriptures – the ancient rabbi’s called it binding (to do away with an interpretation) and loosing ( to accept it) The reason it must be done, is because the Bible is open-ended, meaning that someone has to decide what the verse actually means or look like – to put flesh and blood on the command. Example: “Love” thy “neighbour” as thyself. Even a verse as basic as that one can raise more questions than answers.
Binding and loosing demand an intricate balance of conviction and humility – Read Acts 15 and you will see a good example. “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us". They don’t claim to have an absolute word from God on the matter, but at best claim guidance from His Spirit in humility.
Even today, as in those times, we can only bind and loose the Scriptures as a community of believers when we believe that the Bible is alive.
Example: Is the greatest truth about Adam and Eve and the fruit that it happened or that it happens. Their story is our story. It is true for us, because it happened and it happens. It is an accurate description of how life is. We can see ourselves in these stories.
Another example of how the Bible is alive today is the story of the Israelites and their journey out of Egypt where they were slaves. We (as believers) were in darkness and God brought us out. And we continue to identify areas of darkness in our lives and God continues to bring us out. So the exodus is the Israelites’ story, but also our story. It happened then; it happens now. The rabbi’s spoke of the text being like a gem with seventy faces, and each time you turn the gem, the light reflects differently, giving you a reflection you haven’t seen before. (“ There are seventy faces/facets to the Torah”- Numbers Rabbah 13:15) A Scripture can never be exhausted. Because Truth always leads to more …truth. Because truth is insight into God and God is infinite and God has no boundaries or edges. So truth always has layers and depth and texture. It’s like a pool that you dive into, and you start swmming towards the bottom, and soon you discover that no matter how hard you swim downward, the pool keeps getting…deeper. The bottom is always out of reach.
One of the great “theologians” of our time, Sean Penn, put it this way: “When everything gets answered, it’s fake. The mystery is the truth” (Quoted from “Entertainment Weekly” 6 February 2004)
The reason the Bible continues to resonate with so many people isn’t just because it happened. What gives us strength and meaning and direction is something in addition to the historical events. It is the meaning of these events. The Bible is about today. Marcus Borg calls this the more-than-literal truth of the Bible in his book “The heart of Christianity”
We live in the metaphors. The story of David and Goliath continues to speak to us because we know the David part of the story-we have lived it. The tomb is empty because we have met the risen Christ-we have experienced Jesus in a way that transcends space and time. And this gives us hope.
The Word is living and active and it happens, today.

In order to bind and loose Scriptures, we must understand that the Bible was written by real people in real places at real times. It is people interacting with other people in actual space and time. It is God interacting with people in actual space and time. We cannot ignore this. To take statements made in a letter from one person to living in a real place at a real moment in history writing to another living in a real place out of their context and apply them to today without first understanding their original context sucks the life out of them. They are not isolated statements that float unattached, out in space. They are not first and foremost timeless truths. We may, and usually do, find timeless truths present in the Bible, but it is because they were true in real places for real people at real times. These writers took what they were doing very seriously and had specific outcomes they wanted from their writings. Their writings were recognised as inspired soon after their creation. Peter mentions the writings of Paul in one of his letters: (2 Peter 3:16) ”[Paul] writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” Peter is referring here to Paul’s writings in the same light as “the other Scriptures.” Already early in the life of the Jesus movement, certain letters and writings were beginning to distinguish themselves as being different, inspired, “from God” in ways other religious writings were not. For the next several hundred years there was a lot of discussion in the Christian community about which books were considered Scripture and which books were not. But it wasn’t until the 300s that what we know as the 66 books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as “the Bible.”
“The formation of the canon was a long, dynamic and fluid process and one that was not ever settled once and for all by any one body of individuals voting on it and settling it for future generations of Christians (except that for Roman Catholics it was officially settled at the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, though even many Roman Catholics challenge the decision).” – Stanley Gundry.
We got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is, so when I affirm the Bible as God’s Word, in the same breath I have to affirm that GOD WAS SOMEHOW PRESENT, guiding them to do what they did. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books.
We have to embrace the Bible as the wild, uncensored, passionate account it is of people experiencing the Living God - real people, in real places, at real times, writing and telling stories about their experiences and their growing understanding of who God is and who they are. We cannot tame it, we cannot tone it down. If we do, we cannot say it is the life-giving Word of God. This is why someone can read the Bible without any back-ground knowledge at all and still understand the message, because the words are so powerful. We can enter into these words at any level and they speak to us. The Bible meets us where we are. That is what TRUTH does.
The Bible tells a story, a story that isn’t over, a story that is still being told, a story that we have a part to play in.

I hope you get the bigger picture now. It is just not that easy. It’s not a matter of, “OK, here is the answer.”

Source: Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell
The complete works of Josephus
http://www.jerusalemperspective.com
http://www.jcstudies.com

Thank you for asking these questions! I enjoyed putting my thoughts into writing and testing my understanding of the subject.

One incredible example of prophecy is found in the book of Isaiah. The date of the book is fixed by its first verse: "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Through history and archaeology, the dates of these kings are well known—from 767 to 686 B.C., a span of 81 years. Yet, in Isaiah 44, God reveals to Isaiah a coming conqueror who would permit Jerusalem to be rebuilt after its destruction—although in Isaiah's day Jerusalem was still standing! So here is a prophecy so ahead of its time that only future generations in Jerusalem would first witness the city's destruction and then its rebuilding!
Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians some 100 years after Isaiah's day. And work was not begun to reconstruct it until 539 B.C., when the prophesied king conquered Babylon and decreed that the captive Jews be freed and allowed to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and the temple.
In Isaiah 44, God reveals to Isaiah the actual name of the coming conqueror—Cyrus, known in history as Cyrus the Great: "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: 'I am the LORD, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone ... who frustrates the signs of the babblers, and drives diviners mad ... who says to Jerusalem, "you shall be inhabited," ... who says of Cyrus, "He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, 'You shall be built,' and to the temple, 'Your foundation shall be laid'"'" (Isaiah 44:24-28).

I have many examples of OT prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus. For some reason some of you don't accept the fulfillments of those prophecies in the NT, but here are 10 important ones anyway:

1. The Messiah would be announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day, after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem.
Prophecy: Daniel 9:25 Fulfillment: John 12:12-13

2. The Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.
Prophecy: Psalm 22:16c Fulfillment: Matthew 27:38

3. The Jew's authority to administer capital punishment would be gone when the Messiah arrived.
Prophecy: Genesis 49:10c Fulfillment: John 18:31


4. The Messiah would be killed before the destruction of the temple.
Prophecy: Daniel 9:26c Fulfillment: Matthew 27:50-51


5. The Messiah would be rejected.
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:3b Fulfillment: Matthew 27:21-23


6. The Messiah would die for the sins of the world.
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:8d Fulfilment: 1 John 2:2


7. The Messiah would be born of the "seed" of a woman.
Prophecy: Genesis 3:15a Fulfilled: Luke 1:34-35


8. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
Prophecy: Micah 5:2a Fulfilled: Matthew 2:1-2


9. The Messiah would be sacrificed on the same mountain where God tested Abraham.
Prophecy: Genesis 22:14 Fulfilled: Luke 23:33


10. The Messiah would be killed.
Prophecy: Daniel 9:26a Fulfilled: Matthew 27:35

http://www.messiahrevealed.org
Spirit-Filled Life Bible

Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

Joseph, I really appreciate your participation in the discussion and will definitely use your advice.
Thank you!
Regards,
Carin Nel

Sven

See, that's exactly the reason why it's so important that scholars from different cultures and backgrounds come to the same conclusion: That it's not inerrant, that most prophecies failed, etc.

Luckily, scholars read the most original texts we have.

Yeah, because an omnipotent being apparently is not able to clearly tell what one has to do to obtain salvation.

An omnipotent being could easily make a bible which really is "alive": A book which changes its text according to the reader and the situation. Would come quite handy and would at the same time be very good evidence that your god actually exists.

Problem is of course that it never happened. Genetics easily demonstrates that human population was never only two people (or eight, as in the childish flood story).

Which also never happened - as archeology has showed us quite conclusively.

And played some cruel games with the pharaoh and the remaining Egyptians in the meantime. Yeah.

Except for the ones he does not bring out. But I suspect this isn't god's fault, but their own. Non-falsifiable claims are very convenient, yes?

[snip preaching]

Did I say something about non-falsifiable claims?

And what's the reason that it continues not to resonate with the majority of the world population?

Since the latter never happened, it's no wonder that the bible also fails to give "strength and meaning and direction" to billions of people.

[snip more preaching]

And I suppose it's because "The mystery is the truth" that the holy ghost (or whoever) didn't tell them which books are the right ones?

So why did this take 300 years? :banghead:

[snip even more preaching]

And what exactly hinders anyone to put these verses there, even if he writes hundreds of years later?

Amazing! Especially considering the fact that the conquering and destruction of cities was rather the rule than the exception... Also see above.

Which the Jews (who after all wrote the OT) are just to stubborn to accept, I suppose?

We have explained the reasons quite clearly:
1) Taken out of context.
2) Invented out of thin air.
3) Invented "double fulfillment" out of thin air.

I snipped the 10 "prophecies", because they were already beaten to death much too often here.
Just a hint: As long as one is inventing a story, it's very easy to make it fit to older stories.

Carin Nel

This is such a vague statement without any evidence. I can just as well say many Christians ( scholars) from different cultures and backgrounds come to the same conclusion: that most prophecies were fulfilled.

Untrue! Firstly, you don't believe in God, so you don't have a problem.
Secondly, if you think you need salvation and really care about it, then you would believe what the Bible says how to become saved. The Bible ( God) is VERY clear about HOW as well as one's assurance of salvation.

The book does not change its text acording to the reader and the situation. You are taking my words out of context and putting words into my mouth which I did not say. Read the above quote again and you will see that the rabbi's , and the christian community, after long and hard discussions , after serious consideration, changed some interpretations according to the situations and the times they were living in-example: Women wearing hats in church; gentile men and circumcision, work on a sunday, women in ministry, Levitican laws, etc.

I've seen evidence of the black, burnt peaks of Mount Sinai where the presence of God came down in Ex. 24:17, as well as the remains - chariot wheels of the Pharao and other remains - of a vast army on the bed of the Red sea at the place where the crossing over took place with inscriptions. The evidence of those historic events are all over the area. Archeological evidence has shown that it happened.


Please, Sven, this isn't preaching! It is a well-known idiom that "people are in darkness and then see the light", even in non-Christian language. Ever heard of a bulb that goes on? Same thing. I was talking about "we" that read the Bible to find guidance, I was not talking about critics and sceptics who close their minds to spiritual things. People can realise their life is a mess and change - move from darkness into the light. It happens all the time, and we as Christians believe God is involved. That is not falsifiable! Is that a sin?

Untrue-Most people are moral human beings who live moral lives. They follow moral laws given to them by people who got it from other people before them who got it from...? You see, moral laws are truths that are inside of us and we put flesh and blood to them by doing them. Truth is available to everyone.The Bible tells us of a Man named Jesus who taught and lived the most moral, excellent way to live. We as human beings follow these rules whether we know the Bible or not.
The philosopher Arthur Holmes is known for saying, "All truth is God's truth" It is such a great statement, because what other kind of truth can there be? This is again, of course not falsifiable.
The Christians I know don't follow Jesus because we think Christianity is the best religion. We follow Jesus because He leads us into ultimate REALITY. He teaches us to live in tune with how reality is ( I'm not preaching, I'm stating a fact that is important to make a point)

I really don't know.

Nothing.



Sven, read the Bible, it's all in the prophecies of Jesus. They are coming to Him by the thousands as we speak. Just go to the Messianic Jewish websites and see for yourself! I get their newsletters every day. God has not forgotten them.



On this we will never agree. It does not matter.

Queston: Do you have faith? Any faith.

Regards,
Carin