Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 11-29-2006, 07:14 PM

Interestingly, from a first glance at this none of the references to hanging on a tree are in the books used by Mark in the other parts of the story.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=15&bookset=1

Pretty much all the references are in Ester, which I don't see used elsewhere in the gospel.

I don't want to really draw any conclusions from this, just pointing it out.

blkgayatheist · 12-01-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

You're making my point not yours. The messianic prophesy allegedly involvied hanging from a tree. But Jesus gets crucified on a cross in the narrative. If the authors were starting from the prophesies, they would have had him hung from a tree, not crucified on a cross, avoiding the dubious "explanation" that a cross is like a tree and crucifixion is like hanging.

The prophesy doesn't fit and the narrative has to be "massaged" to make it fit. But you claim the narrative came from the prophesy. So your claim seems to have been rebutted.

And this is just one of dozens of examples where there's a bad "fit."

I think you impose an unnecessarily harsh requirement that there has to be an exact match between the prophecy and the later constructed narrative. I don't know enough about midrash to assert this with a certainty, but its quite possible that the narrative would have used the prophecies/OT scriptures as a starting point but tweaked it for the contemporary setting (crucifixtion was the common punishment, and a cross is close enough to the tree). Also its possible that an exact match would more obviously appear to be a fiction than the subtle matches that require some discernment to see. (discernment seems to be an constant theme in the interpretation of prophecies and oracles)

Also, we are talking about Hebrew OT scriptures and greek new testament writing...some differences would be expected

And, as pointed out, the gospel narratives would also incorporate other elements of the Christology already extant at the time of their writing.

Malachi151 · 12-01-2006, 03:59 PM

Found another potential parallel for the crucifixion scene in Matthew:

Quote:

Amos 8:

8 "Will not the land tremble for this,
and all who live in it mourn?
The whole land will rise like the Nile;
it will be stirred up and then sink
like the river of Egypt.

9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD,
"I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.

I think that this is all the more likely because there is also an Amos 2 parallel. If anyone can comment on the underlying Greek that would be good.

If this is an accurate parallel then that would shape things up like this:

Isaiah 50
6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

Psalm 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
...
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
...
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet. (mistranslation)
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Amos 2:
12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Psalm 69:
Insults have broken my heart,so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ... 9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Ezekiel 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

As compared to:

Quote:

Matthew 27:

27Then the governor's soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said. 30They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

[Note that the sixth hour is 12 noon]

45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

55Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

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11-29-2006, 07:14 PM	#21
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Interestingly, from a first glance at this none of the references to hanging on a tree are in the books used by Mark in the other parts of the story. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=15&bookset=1 Pretty much all the references are in Ester, which I don't see used elsewhere in the gospel. I don't want to really draw any conclusions from this, just pointing it out.

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