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01-19-2009, 08:22 PM | #1 | |
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1 Corinthians 5:1-5
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01-20-2009, 12:34 AM | #2 | |
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Excommunication
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01-20-2009, 03:04 AM | #3 |
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Well that's interesting.
I posted about this line "hand this man over to Satan" some time ago, years probably. At that time the discussion related the line to that which followed viz "so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed " Except the translation we used had this instead: "for the destruction of the flesh''. Which was a hot topic at the time in the context of karta saka and Earl Doherty, docetism, and did Paul mean to describe Jesus in physical [fleshly] or non physical [metaphorical] terms. This phrase "for the destruction of the flesh'' seems to involve, in this context, something like excommunication, as above, which seems to assume that flesh here is used in a metaphorical sense, but something else [murder?] if it is used literally. All part of the confusion and ambiguity as to what Paul meant when he used terms like flesh and spirit and how do they relate to the fleshiness [historicity ?] and spirit [mythicism ?] of the christ concept/person. So I suppose an accurate translation, if that is possible, would be first item on the agenda as to clarifying this puzzling scenario. My RSV has "for the destruction of the flesh'' . Toto's source does not. Blue letter Bible has a set of alternatives from various translations, I'll go check. Nearly all the versions there opt for "for the destruction of the flesh'' for what that is worth. |
01-20-2009, 09:15 AM | #4 | |||
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Collins, A. Y., “The Function of ‘Excommunication’ in Paul,” HTR 73 (1980): 251–63. South, J. T., “A Critique of the ‘Curse/Death’ Interpretation of 1 Cor. 5:1–8,” NTS 39 (1993): 539–61. [LEFT]———, Disciplinary Practices in Pauline Texts (Lewiston, N.Y.: Mellen Biblical Press, 1992), 1–88, 181–98. Thiselton, A. C., “The Meaning of Σάρξ in 1 Cor. 5:5: A Fresh Approach in the Light of Logical and Semantic Factors,” SJT 26 (1973): 204–28. I would also suggest you have a look at what is said about this in the commentaries on 1 Cor. by Fee, Thisselton, Garland, Plummer, Hays, and Clarke. Here are Hays' comments: Quote:
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01-20-2009, 02:36 PM | #5 | |
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Hays is also on google books. The book is described as:
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I think the question in the Opening Post is adequately answered with the answer that Paul was speaking of excommunication. All the rest is just a desparate attempt to make Paul sound more friendly and humanistic, and less like our judgmental and punishing Puritan ancestors. And do we have any real indication that there was a fledgling mission church in Corinth that wanted Paul's advice, outside of Paul's letters? |
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01-20-2009, 03:29 PM | #6 | |||||
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It seems to me, as an insider, that this assertion, is grounded in, influenced by, and born out of not only certain apriori and undemonstrated assumptions about Paul and the Puritans, but also the need to force what Paul says in 1 Cor. to agree with certain questionably informed perceptions about who one has decided he has to have been if one's view of the devlopment of early Christianity is to have any validity. Quote:
Jeffrey |
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01-20-2009, 04:20 PM | #7 | ||||||
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What date do you put on 1 Clement? |
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01-20-2009, 04:45 PM | #8 |
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The purpose of Paul's admonition was to keep sin out of the body of Christ, to prevent that particular sin of fornication from becoming tolerated.
Doesn't Leviticus prohibit mother and son sexual relations? Wasn't it unlawful for a son to have his fathers wife? Seems like the sin of fornication[incestuous behavior] caused what was termed as "confusion" and in regard to inheritance factors, as in identity of heirs. Noah's son Ham "saw his fathers nakedness" and this incestuous affair caused Canaan to be "cursed with a curse". Tradition lent itself to actual sons as receiving inheritance rights, and not "bastards". The only reason for divorce given by Jesus was that of fornication. But could a Jewish man return to the fold after committing fornication? Ezekiel says if the wicked return from his wicked ways then he will be accepted. Redemption seems to play its part here. Also, the gates to the city are open for going out and coming in, in this regard to sin and repentence. The only unforgivable sin was blasphemy - speaking against the word of God [holy spirit]. |
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