FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-19-2009, 08:22 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: US
Posts: 1,055
Default 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

Quote:
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. NIV
Can anybody tell me exactly what Paul is saying here? What does he mean by handing the man over to Satan?
ChristMyth is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 12:34 AM   #2
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Excommunication
Quote:
... once the sinner is expelled from the church, the sphere of Jesus' lordship and victory over sin, he will be in the region outside over which Satan is still master.
Toto is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 03:04 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: oz
Posts: 1,848
Default

Well that's interesting.
I posted about this line "hand this man over to Satan" some time ago, years probably.
At that time the discussion related the line to that which followed viz "so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed "
Except the translation we used had this instead: "for the destruction of the flesh''.
Which was a hot topic at the time in the context of karta saka and Earl Doherty, docetism, and did Paul mean to describe Jesus in physical [fleshly] or non physical [metaphorical] terms.
This phrase "for the destruction of the flesh'' seems to involve, in this context, something like excommunication, as above, which seems to assume that flesh here is used in a metaphorical sense, but something else [murder?] if it is used literally.
All part of the confusion and ambiguity as to what Paul meant when he used terms like flesh and spirit and how do they relate to the fleshiness [historicity ?] and spirit [mythicism ?] of the christ concept/person.

So I suppose an accurate translation, if that is possible, would be first item on the agenda as to clarifying this puzzling scenario.
My RSV has "for the destruction of the flesh'' .
Toto's source does not.
Blue letter Bible has a set of alternatives from various translations, I'll go check.
Nearly all the versions there opt for "for the destruction of the flesh'' for what that is worth.
yalla is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:15 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristMyth View Post
Quote:
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. NIV
Can anybody tell me exactly what Paul is saying here? What does he mean by handing the man over to Satan?
You might find these articles useful in answering your question:

Collins, A. Y., “The Function of ‘Excommunication’ in Paul,” HTR 73 (1980): 251–63.

South, J. T., “A Critique of the ‘Curse/Death’ Interpretation of 1 Cor. 5:1–8,” NTS 39 (1993): 539–61.
[LEFT]———, Disciplinary Practices in Pauline Texts (Lewiston, N.Y.: Mellen Biblical Press, 1992), 1–88, 181–98.

Thiselton, A. C., “The Meaning of Σάρξ in 1 Cor. 5:5: A Fresh Approach in the Light of Logical and Semantic Factors,” SJT 26 (1973): 204–28.

I would also suggest you have a look at what is said about this in the commentaries on 1 Cor. by Fee, Thisselton, Garland, Plummer, Hays, and Clarke.

Here are Hays' comments:

Quote:
Perhaps the most puzzling part of the passage is found in verse 5: “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit [literally, “the spirit”] might be saved in the day of the Lord.” Although there may be an echo here of Job 2:4–6, in which God gives Job over to the power of Satan to “touch his bone and flesh,” the situation is not closely parallel: Job is not being disciplined for any sin, and there is no sense in which Job’s suffering either purifies the community or promotes his own salvation. Thus, the faint echo of Job does not give us much help in understanding the passage. There are three major problems to be resolved in interpreting Paul’s command. What does it mean to “hand this man over to Satan?” Does “flesh” refer to the literal physical body or the “sinful nature” (niv) of the man? And is the purpose of the action remedial, hoping to induce the man’s repentance? These problems interlock with one another.

The best explanation of the “handing over to Satan” is suggested by the Passover metaphor (vv. 6–8). By excluding the incestuous man from the community, the church places him outside the sphere of God’s redemptive protection. He is no longer inside the house (cf. 3:9, “God’s building”) whose doorposts are covered by the blood of Jesus. He is therefore hung out to dry in the realm of Satan (“the god of this world,” 2 Cor. 4:4), exposed to the destructive powers of the world (cf. the reference to “the destroyer” in Exod. 12:23). We may remember that Paul has already spoken of those outside the community of faith as “those who are being destroyed” (1 Cor. 1:18). Probably Paul did not expect the community to perform a ceremony explicitly cursing the man; rather, delivering him to Satan is a vivid metaphor for the effect of explusion from the church. The parallel passage in 1 Timothy 1:20 should be understood in the same way. The closest analogy in the Pauline corpus to this notion of Satan as destroyer is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:9–10, which speaks of the powerful working of Satan to deceive “those who are being destroyed” (again, cf. 1 Cor. 1:18).

But what did Paul expect as the concrete result of this consignment to Satan? Did he expect the physical suffering and death of the excommunicated offender? Or does the expression “destruction of the flesh” refer to a process of purifying him of his fleshly desires, perhaps through shaming him into repentance? And does Paul think that this “destruction,” whatever it entails, will somehow bring about the man’s eschatological salvation? Some interpreters have suggested that Paul has no interest whatever in the final fate of the man, and that the sentence should be understood to mean: “Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [i.e., the evil], in order that the Spirit [present in the community] might be saved [i.e., preserved] for the day of the Lord.” This reading has much to commend it, for it preserves a single-minded focus on the well-being of the church, which is Paul’s central concern in verses 2 and 6–13. Nowhere else, however, does Paul speak of “the Spirit” as needing to be “saved”; given his consistent use of the verb “save” to refer to the eschatogical deliverance of human beings (to cite only the examples in 1 Cor., see 1:18; 1:21; 3:15; 7:16; 9:22; 10:33; 15:2), it is more likely that Paul actually does conceive of the community’s discipline as leading somehow to the repentance and restoration of the sinner. In that case “the flesh” would refer—as in 1 Corinthians 3:3; Romans 7:5, 18, 25; 8:3–8; Galatians 5:13, 19, 24—to the rebellious human nature opposed to God. The meaning of the “destruction of the flesh,” then, must be interpreted in light of what Paul declares in Galatians 5:24: “Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Paul hopes that the community’s censure and expulsion of the incestuous man will lead to this result: his fleshly passions and desires will be put to death. Thus, the eschatological fate of this man, after undergoing discipline and repentance, will be salvation.

Even if 2 Corinthians 2:5–11 refers to a case different from that of the incestuous man, it demonstrates Paul’s belief that stern community discipline can lead to transformation and reintegration into the life of the community: “This punishment by the majority is enough for such a person; so now instead you should forgive and console him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.” (Cf. 2 Cor. 7:10: “Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”) Likewise, the other major New Testament passages on community discipline envision forgiveness and reconciliation as the ultimate goal of the community’s action; for example, Matthew 18:15–20 is followed by the teaching on forgiveness in Matthew 18:21–35 (cf. also Gal. 6:1). In all these cases, however, it is clear that forgiveness does not take the place of discipline; rather, it follows clear community discipline and authentic repentance.

Hays, R. B. (1997). First Corinthians. Interpretation, a Bible commentary for teaching and preaching (84) (or via: amazon.co.uk). Louisville, Ky.: John Knox Press.


Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 02:36 PM   #5
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Hays is also on google books. The book is described as:

Quote:
Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was addressed originally to a fledgling mission church in Corinth. Paul's absence from the church had allowed serious problems to arise within the Corinthian community, but the problems that he addresses in this letter do not always seem based on explicitly theological ideas. The brilliance of Paul, though, is that he frames the issues in theological terms and reflects on them in the light of the gospel.
It seems to me, as an onlooker, that this, and other examples of Christian exegesis, are influenced by the need to force the Biblical passages to agree with a currently valid or comfortable Christian doctrine.

I think the question in the Opening Post is adequately answered with the answer that Paul was speaking of excommunication. All the rest is just a desparate attempt to make Paul sound more friendly and humanistic, and less like our judgmental and punishing Puritan ancestors.

And do we have any real indication that there was a fledgling mission church in Corinth that wanted Paul's advice, outside of Paul's letters?
Toto is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 03:29 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Hays is also on google books. The book is described as:

Quote:
Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was addressed originally to a fledgling mission church in Corinth. Paul's absence from the church had allowed serious problems to arise within the Corinthian community, but the problems that he addresses in this letter do not always seem based on explicitly theological ideas. The brilliance of Paul, though, is that he frames the issues in theological terms and reflects on them in the light of the gospel.
Described by whom?

Quote:
It seems to me, as an onlooker, that this, and other examples of Christian exegesis, are influenced by the need to force the Biblical passages to agree with a currently valid or comfortable Christian doctrine.
One should stress that this judgment is made by one who does not read Greek, who has not read either the exegesis of this passage undertaken by other commentators or the articles on it that that I cited, and who does not have the training or the expertsies necessary even to begin to do exegesis of a Greek text, let alone to evaluate the adequacy of the exegesis that has been done by those who do have the training and the expertise he lacks.

Quote:
I think the question in the Opening Post is adequately answered with the answer that Paul was speaking of excommunication. All the rest is just a desparate attempt to make Paul sound more friendly and humanistic, and less like our judgmental and punishing Puritan ancestors.
For "the rest" to be what you claim it is, it would have to be the case not only that that the exegesis in question is not born out by or solidly grounded in the language and the syntax and the grammar of the text in question, but that temperamentally and pastorally Paul was indeed cut from the same cloth as "our judgemental and punishing Puritan ancestors" (allegedly) were.

It seems to me, as an insider, that this assertion, is grounded in, influenced by, and born out of not only certain apriori and undemonstrated assumptions about Paul and the Puritans, but also the need to force what Paul says in 1 Cor. to agree with certain questionably informed perceptions about who one has decided he has to have been if one's view of the devlopment of early Christianity is to have any validity.

Quote:
And do we have any real indication that there was a fledgling mission church in Corinth that wanted Paul's advice, outside of Paul's letters?
First Clement?

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 04:20 PM   #7
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Hays is also on google books. The book is described as:
Described by whom?
Read the link. But it reflects the first page of the book.

Quote:
One should stress that this judgment is made by one who does not read Greek, who has not read either the exegesis of this passage undertaken by other commentators or the articles on it that that I cited, and who does not have the training or the expertsies necessary even to begin to do exegesis of a Greek text, let alone to evaluate the adequacy of the exegesis that has been done by those who do have the training and the expertise he lacks. . . .
You have provided a theologian who spends paragraphs trying to explain how "hand this man over to Satan" may not be as bad as it seems. I think we are reading theology. Maybe it's good theology, but Hays does not provide any particular reason from that text to say that the text means what he wants it to say.

Quote:
It seems to me, as an insider, that this assertion, is grounded in, influenced by, and born out of not only certain apriori and undemonstrated assumptions about Paul and the Puritans, but also the need to force what Paul says in 1 Cor. to agree with certain questionably informed perceptions about who one has decided he has to have been if one's view of the devlopment of early Christianity is to have any validity.
Erm - want to diagram that sentence? What do you assume that I have assumed about Paul? Do you assume that I assume that Paul even wrote that passage?

Quote:
Quote:
And do we have any real indication that there was a fledgling mission church in Corinth that wanted Paul's advice, outside of Paul's letters?
First Clement?

Jeffrey
Which we all believe is a neutral historical source?

What date do you put on 1 Clement?
Toto is offline  
Old 01-20-2009, 04:45 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 2,608
Default

The purpose of Paul's admonition was to keep sin out of the body of Christ, to prevent that particular sin of fornication from becoming tolerated.

Doesn't Leviticus prohibit mother and son sexual relations? Wasn't it unlawful for a son to have his fathers wife? Seems like the sin of fornication[incestuous behavior] caused what was termed as "confusion" and in regard to inheritance factors, as in identity of heirs.

Noah's son Ham "saw his fathers nakedness" and this incestuous affair caused Canaan to be "cursed with a curse". Tradition lent itself to actual sons as receiving inheritance rights, and not "bastards".

The only reason for divorce given by Jesus was that of fornication.

But could a Jewish man return to the fold after committing fornication? Ezekiel says if the wicked return from his wicked ways then he will be accepted. Redemption seems to play its part here. Also, the gates to the city are open for going out and coming in, in this regard to sin and repentence.

The only unforgivable sin was blasphemy - speaking against the word of God [holy spirit].
storytime is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:23 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.