ohmi

Ezekiel, on the contrary, states that this being was in Eden ,where no mortal king of Tyre was [but Satan was , as the serpent] and identifies him as spiritual by saying that he is the covering cherub at the throne of God [as Jesus is also, but at the right-hand side]

And these cherubim carry the face of a man [Ezekiel 10:14], so indeed Satan, as Jesus, does manifest as a mortal, and die , this is the final antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition

We know also from Revelation that Satan is 'locked away' in death for a thousand years and then resurrected to tempt the resurrected sinners of the earth and instigate 'Armageddon', that he dies a second death for rejecting the truth of God when all flesh is finally baptised of the holy spirit [Joel 2:28] , something which cannot occur until after the second resurrection [because many died before Jesus came]

Satan is indeed denied death after his second resurrecton to the final trial by God, the 'lake of fire' [where the most evil try to live by evil and find at last that it doesn't benefit them after God has taken away their more innocent prey to live in New Jerusalem with Him]

But the translation is misleading you , the expression 'for ever and ever' could perhaps better be rendered 'to the age of the ages' or 'to the end of time' - a finite duration for we know these days that time is by nature finite, that it was created with this universe and ends with the end of this universe-

we also know that Satan eventually yields to Jesus and confesses to God as His prodigal son :-

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Time needs to be spent then in integrating all scripture into a whole in conversation with God [prayer , yearning, meditation, love] , the translations we have are less than perfect [thousands of faults in the KJV for instance are listed in the back of Young's Concordance]

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

ohmi

I'm unsure what you are getting at, but does this quote not seem to pre-date the Middle Ages ?

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Sheshbazzar

Baloney, Ezekiel here is specifically addressing the earthly king and kingdom of Tyre, (as is also clearly indicated in both the prior and latter chapters) the poetic language is simple hyperbole, the only "Eden" to which it is referring is to those luxurious accommodations with which the KING of TYRE was surrounded within his stronghold.

The "cherubic" symbolism referenced was not the exclusive province of the Hebrew religion, in fact the Hebrews had "borrowed" it wholesale, and "adapted" from the early religious symbology of these surrounding cultures. Or to it put more bluntly, this entire symbology and cosmology of "Elohim", of "the serpent", the "cherubim", the "angels" and large portions of "Hebrew" poetry was stolen from earlier cultures.
Fact is, the King of Tyre would have had a much closer connection to, and a far more valid claim to an immediate connection with El, ("gawd" sic) and with these original "creation" stories and the "Garden of Eden" than any of these Johnny-come-lately Hebrew claimants. Here, even Ezekiel was tacitly acknowledging and playing off of this ancient and genuine religious connection that the mortal and living king of Tyre was a true heir to.
You have very little idea of what you are talking about, almost all of Ezekiels symbolic language is ripped off from other earlier religions and has nothing at all to do with the bogus claims about your "Jesus" (sic) that you are attempting to foist off.
If Ezekiel had wanted to write about "Satan" or "Jesus", (whose name would have been "Joshua" to him) he most certainly could have done so, but HE DID NOT, contrary to all of your fabrications and attempts to remake the "prince of TYRE' over into being "Satan" in an opposition to all the Scriptural evidence otherwise.
Present the verse that tell you that "Satan" is "locked away" in death" for a thousand years and then ressurected"
blah blah blah, more "preaching" without understanding and without substance.
A further bunch of misunderstood and miss applied writings.
Your, lets say.....ummm.... "creative" theology eventually has "Satan" come begging to "gawd" on his knees, and recieved by gawd as a prodigal son???!!:Cheeky:
How many Christian theologians or denominations do you think will readily accede to that novel notion? A clue dude, Don't hold your breath.
(A few short years ago they would have simply burned your sorry ass for attempting to preach such heresy)
Man, if there is anyone here guilty of not "living by every word", by your obfuscating and denying what the Bible has to say about Satan, you are certainly setting yourself up as a prime example.

ohmi

The death [as a mortal man] of the covering cherub [thus spiritual being] who was in Eden and walked anmong the stones of fire at the throne of God is in Ezekiel 28 . Yu do not explain the union here of the same spiritual cherub manifesting as the man who dies [exactly as 'the Word' , 'Logos' , spirit ,manifested and died as Jesus on the cross, and stands as the right-hand cherub at the throne of God ], but ezekiel explains the 'faces' of the cherubim, as I underlined... you choose to ignore this , as you choose, it is of no concern to me ...

Revelation reveals the locking away of Satan in the pit ['hell', grave', death] and God's release of him , thus by resurrection, for God's purpose of the trial of the many saved later [Rev 7:9-10], few having found the narrow way in THIS life [Matt 7]:-

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

ohmi

So, explain ,if you will , why the saint says that God is saviour of all men, but you except the man of sin from this ???

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

And ,if you will, explain why Job refers to Satan as a son of God, albeit the prodigal son of the parable :-

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Sheshbazzar

Do The Scriptures actually teach that "god is the saviour of -all- men"?
Then the Almighty and His spokesmen must have only been blowing a lot hot air in all of those verses that promise everlasting destruction as the fate of the wicked.

9. "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon Yahweh, they shall inherit the earth.
10. For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. (Ps.37:9-10)


28. For Yahweh loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Ps. 37:28)


20. Yahweh preserveth all them that love Him: but all the wicked will he destroy. (Psa. 145:20)

18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18)

20. But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of Yahweh [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psa. 37:20)

27. For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. (Psa. 73:27)

28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

Well was it said; If you believe not the The Law and the prophets, neither will you believe the words of Him who rose from the dead.
That you desire to see Satan preserved, and be found standing among the "saved", in an opposition to that which has been of old written and ordained for him by YHWH is evidence in itself of your willingness to pervert The Scriptures and the Gospel.

Underseer

His real name is "Uwe Boll" and he makes movies.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Toto

The digression into the topic of universal salvation has been split off here.

ohmi

Like I quoted, that is indeed what it says, and there are many other places where it says so too, both directly and indirectly

Or rather the wicked are 'destroyed' by death as the wages of sin and then ceasing to be wicked after resurrection [or by God's ever-enduring mercy]

There is no doubt in scripture that God wins, and wickedness ceases and that the wages of sin are death, but hell gives up all the dead in resurrection even of the sinners from this earth and the many are saved even before the second death [Rev 7:9-10]


Yes the wicked cease to propagate wickedness, that does not prevent God's enduring mercy ,but is rather just a precursor to it

yes, the wages of sin is destruction in death, but then the resurrection of all sinners

Yay, they all die, but death has no sting because of resurrection even of all sinners

Yes they perish in death and the end of this earth, then the new earth and resurrection of all sinners

indeed so, but then the resurrection

hell [sheol, hades] is merely the unseen state of the dead, and the life [soul] of the body is indeed lost in death, as is the body of all sinners at the end of this earth, if not before, but then all sinners are resurrected

I think that maybe you have read too much into translated terms and not taken the original meaning

badger3k

The biblical verses merely refer to the title "the satan" and name "Satan". Lucifer, perhaps; I've heard a few different interpretations of that. What I was referring to is all the other names that people today use to refer to the great evil god in christian mythology (mephistopheles, beelezbub, etc). These, unless I am mistaken, came from CE, and came from the time (middle ages? I am not sure here) when demonology got started (I think the new age "magick" types refer to this as hermetic - I think after a big name in the history), but I'm going by a mixture of things I've read over the years. I haven't actually looked into the real history, so I posted this since it may add information as to how the image of Satan et al developed over time.

Not sure if that cleared anything up, or if it just made it muddier.

What's the oldest version of that passage - is it older than the Babylonian Exile, or is it younger, and are we sure that it uses "Satan" as a proper name? Just curious, since I know that translators have tended to change things to fit their own ideas all the time.