ApostateAbe

My model of Jesus is that he was a cult leader. When I say, “cult,” it is necessary to explain what I mean. I do not mean it in the sense of a small religious group that the rest of society hates. Otherwise, almost everyone including conservative Christians would agree with me, except for the negative connotation. Instead, I mean “cult” in the sociological sense, or what is also called a dangerous cult. A dangerous cult is a small religious group that the rest of society hates, but it is more than that. It is a group of people who are willing to go to great personal extremes to adhere to the will of their leader. That is what I mean when I say, “cult.”

I developed my theory of cults in part from my personal contact with cults, including the Lyndon LaRouche movement and the International Church of Christ, and by examining the Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised, by Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

Most of the items on the checklist can be seen within the New Testament, though it isn’t certain that Jesus originated them. For example, “speaking in tongues,” is a practice seen in the New Testament, but not in the earliest sources. But the most crucial elements of a dangerous cult are seen in the earliest sources. In addition, if Christianity was certainly a cult in the second and third generations, then it speaks to the probability of Christianity being a cult in the first generation, though there are some exceptions to that rule, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And, not every item of evidence is a strong indicator of a cult. Many modern churches encourage speaking in tongues, but they are not cults.

I advocate this theory because it provides the most fitting explanation of early Christianity. It explains Jesus and the apostles in a way that a wise sage Jesus, social reformer Jesus, a cynic Jesus, a revolutionary Jesus or a mythical Jesus do not. Of course, an advocate of any sort of Jesus can find verses that fit his or her model, but such an advocate probably can not easily explain the passages that are normally left out of the various proofs. The cult leader Jesus explains them all.

I will list each checklist item in italics. If the item applies to early Christianity, I will give the New Testament passages as evidence, and I will give my commentary on them.

✔ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Matthew 16:16, Mark 10:21, 1 Thessalonians 4:2, Matthew 28:28, John 14:6. This item is listed first because it is the most defining element of a cult. If a group has this item, it is likely to be a cult. If a group does not have this item, it is likely to not be a cult.

✔ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Matthew 16:21-23, Matthew 14:31, Luke 12:28, Mark 11:23. Jesus repeated reprimands those of little faith.

✔ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

1 Corinthians 12:10, Mark 16:17. Theses are passages pertaining to speaking in tongues.

✔ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

Mark 6:7-9, 2 Corinthians 6:14.

✔ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

Luke 13:22-30, Matthew 16:16.

✔ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Matthew 18:7, Luke 6:22, John 7:7. Matthew 18:7 says, “Woe to the world because of {its} stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!”

✔ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

Matthew 21:23-27. Jesus is not accountable to the chiefs of his own religion, and he refuses to say who he is accountable to.

✔ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

Matthew 19:29, Matthew 8:21-22, Matthew 26:16. Jesus advocated abandoning one’s children in order to follow after him, for the reward of eternal life.

✔ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

I can not find any passage appropriate for this item.

✔ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Luke 9:61-62. “Another also said, ‘I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.’”

✔ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

Matthew 28:19. This is the passage of the “Great Commission.”

✔ The group is preoccupied with making money.

Luke 21:1-4. Jesus often advocated giving to the poor, but he strongly encouraged the poor to give what little they had to him.

✔ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Luke 9:61-62. If followers left their families and livelihoods, then all of their time would be spent devoted to the group.

✔ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

2 Corinthians 6:14. “Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?”

✔ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Hebrews 6:4-6. This is the passage that strongly condemns apostates.

Not included in the original checklist is apocalypticism:

✔ The members of the group believe that an enormous catastrophe will soon take place, and they believe it is the responsibility of the group to warn the world about it.

This is not true for all cults, but it is a characteristic that is almost exclusive to cults. It is seen especially in the most powerful and dangerous cults, such as the Lyndon LaRouche movement, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, People's Temple (Jim Jones), and Solar Temple. And it is very easily seen in early Christianity. Jesus says in Mark 9:1, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” Jesus says in Mark 13:30, “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” And he was referring to “days of distress unequaled from the beginning” in addition to many other apocalyptic events. Jesus taught that only those who believe will be saved from this doomsday (Mark 16:16).

Many of us believe that Jesus was only a myth or a story. We have many examples in history and the present day of actual human apocalyptic cult leaders, but not so many examples of merely mythical apocalyptic cult leaders. For people who advance the position of a mythical Jesus, it is essential that they explain and provide evidence for the cultic and apocalyptic elements of the gospels. Are there comparable myths of apocalyptic cult leaders? And do they share the items on the checklist of cult characteristics?

Petergdi

This one isn't fair. The widow's mite is a story told against thinking that the super-rich person who gives a million dollars is doing something better than the rest of us can do. It can be very handy to have a billionare in your church who can give a million when necessary, but you are to understand that from God's point of view his gift may be a small one and your gift can be greater.

Peter.

aa5874

This is your fundamental fatal error. You assume what you have to prove. You have no historical basis whatsoever to just simple say "my model of Jesus was that he was a cult leader."

Well, it can be shown that the Jesus group was not a cult, based on your own criteria.

Look at the very Mark 10.21-22. The disciple was SAD and went away GRIEVED. He appears not to be committed. He lacks the defining element of commitment.

But, there was a total lack of commitment by the disciples when Jesus was arrested, they all fled.

Matthew 26:56 -
Mark 14:50 - And Peter will deny that he knew Jesus or was associated with him.

These are the supposed words of Jesus.
Mt 10:33 -
Matthew 26.69-74 Based on the NT, the disciples and Peter abandoned Jesus when he was arrested, they were not willing to be even arrested with him.

The disciples and Peter are just talkers. They have failed the ultimate commitment test.

Now, if Jesus was just a man, then the disciples are likely to be the ones who spread all false claims about him and were NOT committed to the truth.

Once they knew Jesus was just a man, they most likely just basically lied about him in every which way from birth to death. What we have before us is probably the most dishonest group of followers ever assembled on earth if they did exist.

How is it possible that the disciples did not emulate their leader at all who claimed he was the truth and the life? Why did they have to claim he had no earthly human father when it would have been false?

Jesus taught his disciples to be truthful.

Mr 10:19 - Why did they claim Jesus instantly healed incurable diseases, walked on water, was transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds?

The disciples showed no commitment to their leader, no commitment to honesty. They claimed he said things that he did not say and did things he could not have done.

You made the FATAL mistake of assuming that there was a cult with a leader called Jesus who was deified when there is no external historical evidence that there was a such cult.

You then proceeded to use your assumption as an historical fact. Your assumption or guess became your primary corroborative source.

Your methodology is bogus.

Before you assume there was a cult, you must provide the corroborative historical sources for the cult of Jesus.

There are NONE.

The examples of cults today are based on historical facts. Haile Selassie can be shown to have existed.

There are no external historical facts for Jesus.



Once Jesus was a story about a God/man born of a Virgin and the Holy Ghost with disciples who supposedly preached about the coming of the Kingdom of God then it must be expected that there would be cult-like activities and apocalyptic elements in the story.

The mythological details have been recorded in the NT.

The mythicist does not have to assume that Jesus was presented as a mytholoigal creature.

We have all the data.

We do not have to ignore any information about Jesus, the Ghost of God.

I do not have to assume or guess that Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.35, Mark 16.6 or Acts 1.9 exist. They are right there in the NT, in black and white.

Jesus of the NT was clearly a mythological entity based on the the DATA presented by the authors of the NT and the Church writers.

ApostateAbe

Yes, I know that was certainly Jesus' point. But I have to think that people who proclaim to care for the poor would refuse to accept contributions from the extremely poor. Widows in that time were expected to die of starvation unless they marry, because they could not work. It is someone who wants more money for himself who would accept the contribution and proclaim it as a virtuous model of giving.

Petergdi

I must emphatically disagree. Refusing the generousity of the poor will only serve to make them feel lousy. Much better to accept generousity and help them out and not worry about the fact that is looks silly on a balance sheet.

While there are people in this world who make themselves rich from charitable contributions, it certainly isn't the norm, and it doesn't seem to have been a characteristic of primitive church. If it had been a problem then you would expect it to have been a feature of anti-christian satire.

Peter.

ApostateAbe

Jesus didn't want to give back the money, because to give back the gift would have been rude and would have made her feel bad, and it is better that she goes home and dies from starvation. Jesus actually said that she gave everything she had. Whatever explanation you may have, it seems like the explanation that Jesus was greedy is most plausible.

I am not saying that Jesus got rich from this. But he and his disciples did need to make a living.

Petergdi

In the context of the story it appears to be the temple treasury which is receiving the gifts. Obviously in the context in which Luke was written the reader is expected to make the connection to church giving, but it does seem to be the temple treasury in the story.

You are being over literal. 2 lepta was a very small amount of money - not enough to pay for a single small loaf of bread. If she were wearing clothes of any sort (and one would think so) it is not actually the entireity of her assets, and it wouldn't feed her for a day even if it were the only thing she had other than the clothes on her back. The point is that it is a bigger gift for her than much larger sums would be to a rich person.

Peter.

ApostateAbe

I overlooked the bit about the contributions going into the temple treasury, so you got me there. Jesus said, "...she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on," so it seems irrelevant that maybe she had a few other items that she could sell, or that what she gave wasn't enough to buy anything.

David B

Abe, I've posted many times in multiple fora that to my mind the best evidence there is for Jesus being a historical figure rather than a myth is that so many of his reported words fit the archetypal cult leader model so well.

When people like David Koresh, Charles Manson and Wayne Bent, among others, claim to be Christ like figures, I don't think that they are far off the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ou...ousness_Church

http://strongcity.info/

I know about this because a year or so ago, on another board, I (among others) had a lot of interaction with members and ex members of the Strong City cult.

David B

ApostateAbe

Wonderful, I knew that I wasn't the only mind on this issue. I think it is very often dismissed because of confusion and misapplication of the word, "cult." But sociologists have a detailed understanding of the cult model, and it seems to be a compelling fit to the religion of the New Testament. I figure those with personal involvement in cults are mostly like to agree with the theory.