aa5874

[QUOTE=andrewcriddle;5344650] You are very clear. All you seem to have done is to ignore the facts and then speculate.

Justin, as I have pointed out, mentioned Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Micah, Hezekiah, Moses and other prophets of the sacred scriptures of the OT.

It is reasonable to expect that Justin would have mentioned the names of the authors of the Gospels if the names were available for at least 100 years before.

Ben C Smith

At least 100 years before Justin? When do you think Justin was writing? When do you think the gospels were written?

Ben.

sschlichter

yes, of course.

aa5874

The so-called Christians claimed that an apostle of Jesus, named Matthew, wrote the gospel of Matthew, and sometime after a disciple of Peter, named Mark, wrote the gospel of Mark while Philo of Alexandria was alive.

Philo of Alexandria is considered to have lived upto or about the middle of the 1st century.

In the writings of Justin Martyr, he mentioned that Jesus was born 150 years from the time he was writing, this timeline would put Justin's writings somewhere around the middle of the 2nd century.

So based on the writings of the so-called Christians, the Gospels were written at least 100 years before Justin's writings.

And according to one so-called Christian, the apostle Peter know these things are TRUE.

Ben C Smith

I did not ask you when certain Christians thought the gospels were written. I asked you when you thought the gospels were written. Dare I ask it again? Or are you going to give me the runaround?

Ben.

sschlichter

[QUOTE=aa5874;5345069]You have had numerous responses to this.

Yes, he referred to older books by name as the reference would have been an effective way to communicate because the existence of these OT books were common knowledge to his audience. If Micah was written yesterday, it would have been less likely to be quoted, especially in the case of Justin. He was not writing to the church, he was an apologist. the church copied and distributed the gospels but that does not mean they emailed a copy to the Emporer (forgot which one again).

This does not mean that he did not know who wrote it, it may mean 1) that his audience did not know who they were or it could mean 2) that the apostles was a common term by then and everyone knew who they were. I am sure it could mean other things. You have selected the one possibility and assumed it is the only possibility because it fits your presupposition.

In this you have a lot of work to do, because the words and deeds of Christ from the apostles and the witnesses is quite clear from the gospels, the epistles, Justin Martyr, Papias, Clement, Polycarp, Ireneaus, Barnabas, Tertullian, ... between these men (and I am sure others) and early fragments of the NT, you can re-assemble all you need to be able to verify what the witnesses say they witnessed. No lack of punctuation or later manipulations are going to change that. Of course you do not beleive them but it is willful ignorance to claim they do not believe themselves.

What is the point in saying that Justin Martyr did not know which apostle wrote which gospel when he is quoting from all 3 in question. Is the crux of your argument that no one put a header on them? We have his quotes. 25% of the NT is OT quotes. If you are arguing that someone later changed the gospels then check it against the OT quotes, early fragments, his writing, and these other early writings. You could nearly re-construct the entire NT which you do not need to do because of the 4000 ancient greek manuscripts, 8000 latin, and 1000 of others (coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, etc.). They travelled all over the known world. It is too historically invasive to make the claim you are making.

aa5874

You just wrote, "I am sure it could mean other things."

Yes, it could also mean Justin did know who wrote the memoirs.

You have a lot of work to do.

sschlichter

IF

Justin Martyr said the apostles wrote the memoirs

THEN

Justin Martyr thought he knew who wrote the memoirs.

Which word is causing trouble? apostles, wrote, or memoirs? Which of these are you mistaking for the word anonymous, or un-named, or I do not know?

aa5874

I should have written, "Justin did not mention the NAMES of the authors of the memoirs of the apostles."

And the probabilIty that Justin did not know the NAMES of the authors is increased when Justin quoted passages found ONLY in gMark and GLuke but claimed these passags were from the memoirs of the apostles.

Now, according to Eusebius in "Church History", the authors called Mark and Luke were NOT apostles.

So, I hope you see the problem. Justin quoted passages from gMark and gLuke as passages written by apostles but Mark and Luke were NOT apostles.

It is reasonable to claim Justin did not know the names of the apostles who wrote the memoirs and further that Justin did not know that persons who were NOT apostles also had passages in the memoirs of the apostles.

Ben C Smith

In your view, did Justin know that the memoirs were composed both by apostles and by followers of the apostles? Or was it strictly apostles for him, IYO?

Ben.